Summoner Issues & Player Feedback

[Frass]

In light of the new details about summoner's additions in Dawntrail and the statement about the new job additions overall being based on fan feedback a lot of players, myself included are confused and disappointed about what we have been shown and promised. I want to share my viewpoint on this and invite others to share theirs as well.

Solar Bahamut was definitely an unexpected addition, but also a very confusing one. When looking at potential Demi summons being added most would have expected existing ones such as Odin, Alexander, Golden Bahamut, etc. While it's not what has been asked for for so long I would still say being surprised is nice, but it's rather unfortunate that we are getting yet another iteration of Bahamut instead of something new. Especially one that we have no context for (but maybe we will get in Dawntrail.)

Though the biggest problem isn't really the choice of demi in my eyes. It's more the choice of adding a new demi. While the summoner rework was able to clean up some of the issues with the job, it definitely overcorrected and made the job too simple. Me and others expected the Endwalker version to be a base to be built upon, but judging off what we have seen so far this really doesn't help with either the issue of job identity or the gameplay.

(Note: I'm referring to the EW version of the summoner, SHB summoner is gone wether we like it or not.)



Gameplay:
The biggest issue of gameplay at the moment (once again, in my opinion) is how dull the Gemshine phase is. Even if there is a minimal amount of optimization in the order of gems it is nowhere near enough to feel like you have proper skill expression. Sure you can save festers and get a 4-fester burst but that is a very minimal change for seemingly very low output.

I think most players would have wanted the Gemshine phase be addressed: Makse the downtime between bursts less boring and give more room for skill expression and optimization that helps raise the skill ceiling.

Having SMN be a simpler caster is not a bad thing considering it's a level 1 unlock, the problem is that the skill roof is too low. The rotation of a starter and master summoner is basically identical. There were some new abilities shown in the job action trailer but they at least don't appear to be enough as of now.



Job Identity/Fantasy

The second issue that has not really been addressed is this. In adding another version of Bahamut SE has not strengthened the fantasy os a summoner, if anything it has only made the summoner more of a Bahamut mage than anything else.

I have played FFXI and I am extremely aware that comparing these two games is a bad comparison, however the summon list in that game was way bigger with way more variety. But even ignoring that, we have been stuck with largely the same summons for 10 years now, with teasing here and there about new summons but no action on it.

Almost every summoner wants to get Ramuh, Shiva, and Leviathan. They are iconic summons that could be implemented in so many ways. They could come in the form of oGCD abilities, a new set of summons that alternates with the current set, or potentially even added to the current pattern to make us have to choose between 6 potential gems in the Gemshine phases.

I'm not saying any of those suggestions should be implemented mind you, but I believe that SE would be able to add those 3 and make them strengthen the boring downtime phase. At the moment, Blue Mage has access to more avatar abilities than a summoner by a long shot and that just feels a little strange.



And yes, they said they would be trying to develop things further in 8.0. That is a really good goal, but there is the question if this promise will be upheld. Unfortunately, a lot of these promises, especially about summoner have been long forgotten. But the bigger problem is that this is promising a fix 2-3 years in the future. That is simply just too late. If you are aware that there is a issue with identity it would need to be addressed much earlier. Multiple years is a long time for just a promise of something.



In the end, I want to of course clarify I'm no game dev and I know not what the plans or reasoning behind these things is. I trust that the developers have a plan and I know they are capable. But as a player who has loved Summoner in every FF I've played, who has played Summoner since I started FFXIV, I feel a little uneasy in how the problems with the job are going unadressed, and how we are left quite in the dark and forced to just wait and hope that we have been truly listened to.

While a lot of people are critical to the rework I think that in the long run it was the right move, helping to clean up gameplay and improve job identity/fantasy. But I hope that the devs will be able to continue building on this base, and I hope they will be able to keep us more in the loop about plans and potentially bring these fixes sooner than later.

[LittleArrow]

I posted this in another thread, but I'd like to post this here too, since it's a defined thread towards summoner.

I hated the original FFXIV summoner. I feel awful for the players that loved it to lose their class. However, wanting summoner to be a wow warlock isn't the answer. Yoshida's vision for summoner being an actual summoner was 100% the correct move.

I ADORE the new Summoner! Summoner was always my favorite class in every final fantasy game, even the ones that didn't have it - I was so excited to get the new summon materia, guardian force, whatever they called it! Those cutscenes were one of my favorite things in all the final fantasy games, which is why I'm so confused we're getting neo-bahamut.

I 100% agree, I do NOT want a Bahamut mage. I want a SUMMONER. I want Shiva, Ramuh, Leviathan, Titania, Anima - I want all of the classic summons and I want new summons too! I know the devs are scared of button bloat, then make the Shiva / Ramuh / Leviathan replace Titan, Garuda, Ifrit during Phoenix phase. Give us a OGCD of Alexander for a party shield / buff. Give us more summons please!

[EDIT] I just wanted to add, I really like where Bahamut and Phoenix sit with the job. They're beautifully mirrored just like in game with how they fit in the lore; I'll stop there due to spoilers. There's nothing wrong with how it is now, but going forward - give me more summons!

[Axxion]

fyi you edit your original post to bypass the limit

[Frass]

fyi you edit your original post to bypass the limit

Thank you for the advice!

[Rekh]

I'd like to just suggest to the devs to just implement a glamour system for all summoner summons, even if they can only add 1 at a time. Start out with Leviathan as a glamour replacement for ifrit, titan, and garuda; he'll just do the same damage those 3 already do; the only difference would be visually. Interestingly my friend told me a modder was able to do this; it's just a matter of copy pasting the model and its attacks.

[LittleArrow]

I'd like to just suggest to the devs to just implement a glamour system for all summoner summons, even if they can only add 1 at a time. Start out with Leviathan as a glamour replacement for ifrit, titan, and garuda; he'll just do the same damage those 3 already do; the only difference would be visually. Interestingly my friend told me a modder was able to do this; it's just a matter of copy pasting the model and its attacks.

I couldn't disagree more with this. I don't want to skin over the three - I want to use new unique summons, not just a graphic. They absolutely can do this! Replace Ifrit / Garuda / Titan with Shiva / Ramuh / Leviathan on Phoenix phase, give us a OGCD party wide shield with Alexander - that's already 4 unique summons and only 1 extra button.

[SigmarrIrenesch]

I want all of the classic summons and I want new summons too! I know the devs are scared of button bloat, then make the Shiva / Ramuh / Leviathan replace Titan, Garuda, Ifrit during Phoenix phase. Give us a OGCD of Alexander for a party shield / buff. Give us more summons please!

This would honestly be so neat and I was hoping it would be the case. Solar Bahamut is cool, but still having only Garuda, Titan and Ifrit to rotate through for it (or the other two big summons for that matter) feels lacking.

[Rekh]

I couldn't disagree more with this. I don't want to skin over the three - I want to use new unique summons, not just a graphic. They absolutely can do this! Replace Ifrit / Garuda / Titan with Shiva / Ramuh / Leviathan on Phoenix phase, give us a OGCD party wide shield with Alexander - that's already 4 unique summons and only 1 extra button.

This is square enix we're talking about, if it takes a lot of time or effort they'll "leave it for 8.0." Gotta give them the absolute bare minimum effort suggestion where it literally takes an unpaid intern to copy paste model, texture, and other data over to ifrit, titan, and garuda.

[SigmarrIrenesch]

This is square enix we're talking about, if it takes a lot of time or effort they'll "leave it for 8.0." Gotta give them the absolute bare minimum effort suggestion where it literally takes an unpaid intern to copy paste model, texture, and other data over to ifrit, titan, and garuda.

Personally I don't see any of the current attacks and their visual/sound design fitting Shiva/Ramuh/Leviathan, so it'd feel cheap to have their models summoned while everything else stays the same. And if you were to remake the animations and sound to fit the glamour, you might as well go all the way to implement the summons proper.

But I wouldn't object to more approriate summon glamours, like Garuda/Titan/Ifrit from the Eden raids.

[KisaiTenshi]

Almost every summoner wants to get Ramuh, Shiva, and Leviathan. They are iconic summons that could be implemented in so many ways. They could come in the form of oGCD abilities, a new set of summons that alternates with the current set, or potentially even added to the current pattern to make us have to choose between 6 potential gems in the Gemshine phases.

I think half the problem stems from the "-egi"'s basically looking nothing like a summon we expect (ye ol "titan chicken nugget"), so what would Ramuh , Shiva, and Leviathan look like? Ramuh and Shiva end up looking like recolored Ifrit-egi's , and for lore reasons, logically we can not summon the actual primal. Players would probably re-glam them to carbuncle just so they occupy less space on the screen.

So maybe what is called for here is to make the primal-egi's at least be able to be glammed to the minion appearances. It's not like the game doesn't have those assets.



But maybe people like the existing ones. Another path to go is to take a page from "World of Final Fantasy" (Basically a game that you collect final fantasy monsters) and have alternate transfigurations of Ramuh (Ramewl), Shiva(Shivalry), and, Ifrit (Ifreeta), it's not like we didn't see an allusion to this in the first during the Eden's Gate raids. They made entirely alternate versions of each Primal.

There are plenty of other things Yoshi-P can let the summoner summon, and ways of customizing/glamor'ing them to suit the players taste.