Curtana :(

[Ronik]

@Ronik- Don't you think it's odd that the Warrior weapon has Enmity, and the Paladin weapon does not? Warrior who is supposed to be a Damage Dealer first and a tank second? There's a whole lot of tunnel vision happening in this post.

Did you even read my post? It's like the entire thing went over your damned head. Do you still not understand how accuracy is as immensely useful and potent a tanking stat as enmity is?

Also, why are you making the claim that WAR is a "damage dealer first and a tank second"? There is absolutely NO indication of that being even remotely true: in fact, I would go as far to say that you're flat-out wrong about this. Here is the official class description for WAR on the lodestone page:

"Warriors have the honor of possessing the highest HP of any class or job. Thriving on the enmity of his foes, there is no fiercer fighter on the field of battle."

Now, where in there do you see "damage dealer first" because I *certainly* do not. Oh, wait, it's not there. A WAR's job is to be a balance between taking damage and outputting damage, and the design intent is that accomplishing the former helps to improve the latter. Or did you miss the part where 3 of the 5 abilities unlocked by the WAR class are specifically tanking abilities?

Again, you do not appear to have a clear grasp on either tanking mechanics (have you even attempted Garuda or done any of the relic quest?) nor class design (where the hell are you getting that WAR is primarily a DD?).

[Quatre]

Did you even read my post? It's like the entire thing went over your damned head. Do you still not understand how accuracy is as immensely useful and potent a tanking stat as enmity is?

Also, why are you making the claim that WAR is a "damage dealer first and a tank second"? There is absolutely NO indication of that being even remotely true: in fact, I would go as far to say that you're flat-out wrong about this. Here is the official class description for WAR on the lodestone page:

"Warriors have the honor of possessing the highest HP of any class or job. Thriving on the enmity of his foes, there is no fiercer fighter on the field of battle."

Now, where in there do you see "damage dealer first" because I *certainly* do not. Oh, wait, it's not there. A WAR's job is to be a balance between taking damage and outputting damage, and the design intent is that accomplishing the former helps to improve the latter. Or did you miss the part where 3 of the 5 abilities unlocked by the WAR class are specifically tanking abilities?

Again, you do not appear to have a clear grasp on either tanking mechanics (have you even attempted Garuda or done any of the relic quest?) nor class design (where the hell are you getting that WAR is primarily a DD?).

Have -you- read any of my other posts? Your posts are filled with nothing but inciting elitist asshole-ism.

Feel free to check my achievements, I've done all the content in the game except for Ifrit Extreme (Have you even attempted this yet?)

After some valid arguments from some of the intelligent members of the Paladin community I can see the strength of Accuracy is much higher than I'd previously thought it. However, Nowhere did I say accuracy was a BAD thing.


Your argument is incredibly flawed and lacks to even acknowledge what the Paladin Lodestone description is.

"The paladin job sacrifices maximum HP, but this is compensated by way of greatly enhanced defense as well as the ability to cast healing magic. Valiant by nature, a paladin can shield his comrades from blows, making him the unyielding rock upon which a party’s defense is built."
Being the FIERCEST FIGHTER on the field sounds quite a bit like damage dealing. Being an Unyielding rock upon which a party's defense is built sounds quite a bit like tanking.


My entire rant is about all of the tank Itemization on Warrior, when it belongs on the -tank- class.
I didn't miss the part where Three out of Five the abilities unlocked on warrior are Tank Abilities, and it makes total sense for an OFFTANK to gain access to these, considering SE's "Vision" laid out in this thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...764#post449764 It's intended for the warrior to be able to "Throw the attacks back at the boss"(To deal damage) or take a few hits. Paladin is clearly the one envisioned to be the tank. Do I need to link anything else to prove this?

If you're not going to contribute anything to the conversation, or say anything remotely intelligent i'd suggest you go to the general forums to spend your days.

[Ryans]

Your argument is incredibly flawed and lacks to even acknowledge what the Paladin Lodestone description is.

"The paladin job sacrifices maximum HP, but this is compensated by way of greatly enhanced defense as well as the ability to cast healing magic. Valiant by nature, a paladin can shield his comrades from blows, making him the unyielding rock upon which a party’s defense is built."
Being the FIERCEST FIGHTER on the field sounds quite a bit like damage dealing. Being an Unyielding rock upon which a party's defense is built sounds quite a bit like tanking.


My entire rant is about all of the tank Itemization on Warrior, when it belongs on the -tank- class.
I didn't miss the part where Three out of Five the abilities unlocked on warrior are Tank Abilities, and it makes total sense for an OFFTANK to gain access to these, considering SE's "Vision" laid out in this thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...764#post449764 It's intended for the warrior to be able to "Throw the attacks back at the boss"(To deal damage) or take a few hits. Paladin is clearly the one envisioned to be the tank. Do I need to link anything else to prove this?
.

Get off your high horse and look at the real world application of the two jobs. If something can tank each and every piece of end game content, it is a main tank. Plain and simple. I don't care if warrior had the description of "I take hits like a pussy but deal the best damage." IF it can tank effectively, its a main tank. So stop calling warrior an off tank.

Also, consider the fact that there is only one fight (Princess) where you need an off tank and I wouldn't be surprised if pug or lnc could tank the add.

To throw in my two cents about enmity on Curtana, who needs it? If you have a relic, you will probably have best-in-slot gear every where else and know how to play your job. Sure, it would be nice to have it all on a relic but it would just be overkill. If everyone in your group is playing correctly, no one should have to hold back for fear of enmity.

[Brannigan]

Also, consider the fact that there is only one fight (Princess) where you need an off tank and I wouldn't be surprised if pug or lnc could tank the add.

Marshall actually hits a lot harder than princess. You can dodge his WSes but he still melees like a truck.

As far as accuracy goes, in most mmorpgs tanks aim for consistency. The term "solid rock" is pretty accurate. You want consistent hate generation and defense so your party members know how much they can damage/heal/whatever. Having your hate generation at the start of a fight get delayed because you're whiffing phalanxes sucks.

[PiedPiper]

Also, consider the fact that there is only one fight (Princess) where you need an off tank and I wouldn't be surprised if pug or lnc could tank the add.

Just as a side note... you don't actually NEED an off tank for Princess. We run PLD WHM BLM DRGx5 (sometimes one MNK) on the princess fight and I (the PLD) have no problem surviving without using Hallowed (I don't have it up anyway since i go WAR for the first rooms). To be clear: I tank both the Princess and the Marshal. And I'm not super built for def/vit either, only 710 and 305 (numbers before protect). I just use DV then Sent once marshal is on me, boon after sent, and... princess is dead. Granted this probably only works in groups with very good DD's, as the longer I stand there the more time I'd spend "naked" without cool downs and probably get eaten.

As to the larger topic of the thread. Dude. Accuracy. Its awesome. Cry more. I rock 182 enmity, and honestly, Curtana will more than make up for the 30 I'd lose in the switch (Garuda/Thoromen's) in just the damage, dps, and spirits boost alone, much less the mp and accuracy.

After reading your post our tank tried to swap around his gear set to get more str.

He gained +74 STR, which should be +60 per WS right?

His Flat blade went from 15 (HDL gauntlet, VIT allocation) to 20-22 (STR gloves, STR allocation).

Something is wrong with that formula, or it doesn't account for the defenses of such mobs as Chimera but he gained roughly 6 damage, not 60 unless Chimera has an inherent -90% physical damage taken. BRD also does really really pitiful damage on him too, and raising to stat caps doesn't help some WS's at all such as Gloom arrow it seems.

edit--
Tank tried one more time at +124 STR and flat blades still in 20-24 range.

He said spirits rose a lot, however, just not Flat Blade.

I would really like to see this addressed by the "wear more str/mnd as PLD" camp, because I've had similar experiences boosting my str from a dismal 229 to 310. As someone else mentioned, I was told that MND pumps Spirits and enmity combo, so I actually maintain 304 Mind and suspect the tank mentioned here has a similar amount (just considering that pieces like HDL gloves and Militia hat give mnd). I'm not saying I don't believe in "DD PLD" i'm just not... entirely sold on the numbers?

[Judge_Xero]

I would really like to see this addressed by the "wear more str/mnd as PLD" camp, because I've had similar experiences boosting my str from a dismal 229 to 310. As someone else mentioned, I was told that MND pumps Spirits and enmity combo, so I actually maintain 304 Mind and suspect the tank mentioned here has a similar amount (just considering that pieces like HDL gloves and Militia hat give mnd). I'm not saying I don't believe in "DD PLD" i'm just not... entirely sold on the numbers?

Chimera does have very high defense. So a straight DD tank will have a tough time with it, especially building the initial Enmity before everyone starts in.

What you need to consider is capping both STR and MND. You can get into the 30+ Damage range on Flat blade combo with a high DPS weapon.

With the Multiplier increase and damage from MND + extra damge from STR, you can generate 221+ ENM, 3-5 times a minute.

With just the low base stats with you will be generating around 83 ENM, 3-5 times per minute
(these are without Sentinel)

But on the flip side, you have other non damage skills that can benefit from ENM+.
So Taunt and Flash, etc. Which with 200+ ENM will get you around an extra 20% ENM on top of what they generate, every minute.

So add it all together (worst case scenario 3 Flat Blade Combos)
STR+MND, Taunt+Provoke (1000 ENM) Damage Delt (663 ENM) Total 1663
ENM + , Taunt+Provoke (1200) Damage Delt (249 ENM+20% = 299) Total 1499

The damage may seem insignificant, but it adds up, as does your ENM generated

On a side note: A great starter for Chimera is Sentinel, Aegis Boon, Phalanx, Bloodbath, Spirits Within, Holy Succor. You will have to get quite a bit of hate and self heals in before that first WHM tops you off for 1k HP, then you can just continue your normal rotation.

[PiedPiper]

Chimera does have very high defense. So a straight DD tank will have a tough time with it, especially building the initial Enmity before everyone starts in.

What you need to consider is capping both STR and MND. You can get into the 30+ Damage range on Flat blade combo with a high DPS weapon.

With the Multiplier increase and damage from MND + extra damge from STR, you can generate 221+ ENM, 3-5 times a minute.

With just the low base stats with you will be generating around 83 ENM, 3-5 times per minute
(these are without Sentinel)

But on the flip side, you have other non damage skills that can benefit from ENM+.
So Taunt and Flash, etc. Which with 200+ ENM will get you around an extra 20% ENM on top of what they generate, every minute.

So add it all together (worst case scenario 3 Flat Blade Combos)
STR+MND, Taunt+Provoke (1000 ENM) Damage Delt (663 ENM) Total 1663
ENM + , Taunt+Provoke (1200) Damage Delt (249 ENM+20% = 299) Total 1499

The damage may seem insignificant, but it adds up, as does your ENM generated

On a side note: A great starter for Chimera is Sentinel, Aegis Boon, Phalanx, Bloodbath, Spirits Within, Holy Succor. You will have to get quite a bit of hate and self heals in before that first WHM tops you off for 1k HP, then you can just continue your normal rotation.

Hmm, well with just mind cap and a high dps weapon, I am already in that 30ish range on Chim. My auto attack damage is really light though, but, meh. I think we really need to look at some parses and enmity per second calculations to see if we can start coming up with genuinely comparative data. I got a good miser parse tonight, should get chime later in the week, will post both as the "enmity/mind" camp example.

[Judge_Xero]

Hmm, well with just mind cap and a high dps weapon, I am already in that 30ish range on Chim. My auto attack damage is really light though, but, meh. I think we really need to look at some parses and enmity per second calculations to see if we can start coming up with genuinely comparative data. I got a good miser parse tonight, should get chime later in the week, will post both as the "enmity/mind" camp example.

No, there can only be 2 camps. ENM+ VS. DD
None of this, ENM + MND stuff.

Looking forward to seeing your results. Might need to start a new thread though. This "Curtana " thread is so far off topic now. Don't want those new up and coming PLD's missing out on all these discussions.

[Ronik]

Have -you- read any of my other posts? Your posts are filled with nothing but inciting elitist asshole-ism.

Oh, I'm sorry, did I hurt your feelings? Here's a tissue.

Feel free to check my achievements, I've done all the content in the game except for Ifrit Extreme (Have you even attempted this yet?)

Wait, I thought your argument was that I was the elitist here? The irony here is almost chuckle worthy.

It's astonishing how someone can complete content yet still not understand the most basic mechanics of the game, isn't it?

After some valid arguments from some of the intelligent members of the Paladin community I can see the strength of Accuracy is much higher than I'd previously thought it. However, Nowhere did I say accuracy was a BAD thing.

I called you out for having an idiotic argument (your claim that accuracy is a poor tanking stat) and suddenly I'm the unintelligent one? I'm gonna quote your own words here:

"Instead we got Accuracy. The tanking class. Got Accuracy." - Some Idio--- oh wait, this is you I'm quoting.

The statement here makes it very clear that you consider accuracy to be an entirely unsuitable stat for the purposes of tanking. You even separated it from the rest of your post for emphasis. Again, you clearly consider Accuracy to be a bad thing (which, again, points to your ignorance). So, no, you're contradicting yourself again in an attempt to not look stupid for saying something stupid.

Your argument is incredibly flawed and lacks to even acknowledge what the Paladin Lodestone description is.

Please specify where the hell I mentioned the Paladin's lodestone description, at all, in either of my posts? Claiming my argument is flawed does not make it so, particularly when you immediately after bring in something which I did not mention at all.

"The paladin job sacrifices maximum HP, but this is compensated by way of greatly enhanced defense as well as the ability to cast healing magic. Valiant by nature, a paladin can shield his comrades from blows, making him the unyielding rock upon which a party’s defense is built."
Being the FIERCEST FIGHTER on the field sounds quite a bit like damage dealing. Being an Unyielding rock upon which a party's defense is built sounds quite a bit like tanking.

Again, your incoherent rambling does not qualify as an argument. It does not matter what the phrase "fiercest fighter" sounds like to you. The Warrior is STATED to have the highest HP value in the game, as well as to "thrive on the enmity of it's foes". It is directly and clearly stated in the Warrior class description that the Warrior uses enmity as a tool to perform it's job, as well as boasting the highest HP (gee, I wonder what role in the game would need tons of HP and enmity?). Your pedantic interpretations are worthless here: your claim that the Warrior is a "damage dealer first, tank second" are entirely wrong, and (surprise) laughably misinformed.

My entire rant is about all of the tank Itemization on Warrior, when it belongs on the -tank- class.
I didn't miss the part where Three out of Five the abilities unlocked on warrior are Tank Abilities, and it makes total sense for an OFFTANK to gain access to these, considering SE's "Vision" laid out in this thread http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...764#post449764 It's intended for the warrior to be able to "Throw the attacks back at the boss"(To deal damage) or take a few hits. Paladin is clearly the one envisioned to be the tank. Do I need to link anything else to prove this?

If you're not going to contribute anything to the conversation, or say anything remotely intelligent i'd suggest you go to the general forums to spend your days.

First off, to reiterate (since it's easy to forget why I consider this topic a waste of space in the first place), accuracy is one of the best stats on the Paladin Relic. Period. The Paladin Relic is arguably the best itemized relic of the lot, not that this means anything to you since you clearly do not understand stats or itemization.

Second, just because you *think* the Warrior should be an "offtank" does not make it reality (Oh, are you backpedaling from claiming the Warrior is primarily a DD, now?). The Warrior has all the tools and a clear design intent for versatility when it comes to both tanking and DD (and is , at the moment, more of a Tank than a DD both by design and in practical implementation). My posts are plenty constructive and intelligent - you're just clearly lashing out at me for calling you out on your profound, laughable ignorance.

Don't worry, though. I'll avoid hurting your feelings from here on out. <3

[Quatre]

My posts are plenty constructive and intelligent

Oh, I wonder why I didn't notice?

Oh, I'm sorry, did I hurt your feelings? Here's a tissue.

It's astonishing how someone can complete content yet still not understand the most basic mechanics of the game, isn't it?

Again, your incoherent rambling does not qualify as an argument

Your pedantic interpretations are worthless here

(since it's easy to forget why I consider this topic a waste of space in the first place)

not that this means anything to you since you clearly do not understand stats or itemization.

you're just clearly lashing out at me for calling you out on your profound, laughable ignorance.

I'm going to use a little help from you now, and pull up one more quote to comment on all of those.

The irony here is almost chuckle worthy.

I called you out for having an idiotic argument (your claim that accuracy is a poor tanking stat)

Your arguments are slippery slope, and incredibly biased. Never once did I state that Accuracy is a poor tanking stat. Good luck finding that. The post that you quoted "Instead we got Accuracy. The tanking class. Got Accuracy." Shows my shock that the job who's role is exclusively to tank had Accuracy while the Warrior weapon had Enmity. This statement is in no way devaluing Accuracy. You're reaching past my argument and drawing your own conclusions in order to entertain yourself on these forums.

Please specify where the hell I mentioned the Paladin's lodestone description, at all

Did you forget you mentioned the warrior lodestone description?

Claiming my argument is flawed does not make it so, particularly when you immediately after bring in something which I did not mention at all.

Damn, this is spot on! Except my mentioning another lodestone post which states that Paladin is considered -the- "Tank" class is incredibly relevant. If you wish to bring in a source to prove your point, then I am just as justified to prove mine. It's slightly ironic here, since you claimed my argument is flawed immediately after claiming that I think Accuracy is a poor tanking stat. Which I never mentioned at all

It does not matter what the phrase "fiercest fighter" sounds like to you.

Second, just because you *think* the Warrior should be an "offtank" does not make it reality

First, it doesn't matter what it sounds like to you -either-
Secondly, Just because you *think* Warrior should be a "Maintank" does not make it reality

your claim that the Warrior is a "damage dealer first, tank second" are entirely wrong, and (surprise) laughably misinformed.

Does Warrior have several abilities oriented entirely towards dealing Damage?

Is warrior able to put out great damage numbers?

On the garuda fight, and Ifrit extreme fight, in strongholds, or any other situation where there are more than 1 monsters to attack, what is the best damage dealing class?


Now. I'm really curious. What would your post be like if we removed all of the douche baggery?

The Paladin Relic is arguably the best itemized relic of the lot. The Warrior has all the tools and a clear design intent for versatility when it comes to both tanking and DD (and is , at the moment, more of a Tank than a DD both by design and in practical implementation

Wow, you used a great many words to say very little.

I will agree that Paladin relic is among the better itemized of the relics. Especially after consulting with Sword on the specifics of how Enmity is calculated and how damage is honestly going to have a greater yield on enmity than the raw stat itself. Both are important to have while still maintaining mitigation.

You hit the nail on the head with Warrior and how it's designed. The problem is, It can tank while still being the totally strong DD. My point is, it's terribly unbalanced to have one job who's sole purpose is tanking, and for another to be able to both Tank, and deal a ton of damage. Yoshi's made strides to move away from this direction with the ability reforms that have enhanced block and Paladin overall, and slightly nerfed WAR tank damage... This just proves my point even further.

I'm not stating your wrong, I'll even retract my statement that you're unintelligent. You're not stupid, you're just being an asshole. I'm simply trying to show you the apple you've been eating is actually an orange.