concerning Monk changes

[Ianmaru]

This hinges on the specifics of the new resources built by Twin Snakes (Raptor Gauge) and Demolish (Coeurl Gauge). If the Raptor gauge buffs all Raptor form GCDs and the Coeurl Gauge buffs all Coeurl form GCDs, then the rotation remains as is. If they just buff True Strike and Snap Punch it's gonna get weird.

Right now Monk's downtime rotation is as follows. I've put what the new gauges will sit at if we need to use them gauge to buff the reapplication of Twin Snakes and Demolish in parenthesis to illustrate how it will look if it doesn't change. I'm just calling them O, R and C for Opo Opo, Raptor, and Coeurl gauges respectively.

DK>TwS>Dem (O:1 R:2 C:3)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:1 C:2)
DK>TwS>SP (O:1 R:0>2 C:1)
Bs>TrS>Dem (O:0 R:1 C:O>3)
DK>TwS>SP (O:1 R:0>2 C:2)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:1 C:1)
DK>TwS>Dem (O:1 R:0>2 C:0>3)

However if the new resource only buffs True Strike and Snap Punch then what the rotation turns into is:

DK>TwS>Dem (O:1 R:2 C:3)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:1 C:2)
DK>TrS>SP (O:1 R:0 C:1)
BS>TwS>SP (O:0 R:2 C:0)
DK>TrS>Dem (O:1 R:1 C:3)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:0 C:2)
DK>TwS>SP (O:1 R:2 C:1)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:1 C:0)
DK>TrS>Dem (O:1 R:0 C:3)
BS>TwS>SP (O:0 R:2 C:2)
DK>TrS>SP (O:1 R:1 C:1)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:0 C:0)

Which is a huge change to Monk's gameplay outside of its burst window.

I think its not going to be like that. I think we're not supposed to drop R & C pips to 0, so the rotation will still be the same as how it currently is.

[Mikey_R]

I think its not going to be like that. I think we're not supposed to drop R & C pips to 0, so the rotation will still be the same as how it currently is.

But, there is no reason to suggest that or why that would be the the case. I basically came to the same conclusion SpeckledBurd did.

Another thing to ponder is whether Bootshine is going to keep the auto crit or not. It is never used at anything other than max Chakra (it is never used when under Brotherhood, however, it also seems GCDs under Brotherhood don't generate a Chakra either, which I hope isn't the case).

Another thing I want to point out is at the end of the Monk showcase, RoE, RoW and RoF. It seems there are actions that proc off of them. RoE has an aura, similar to current PvP RoE. RoW and RoF is where it gets interesting. They are both elemental Hadoukens and they have the GCD yellow VFX. This suggests to me they are available when RoW and RoF are used and are likely to be in the burst window. I also want to speculate that RoW will have some other mechanic we do not see, considering RoF does give a Chakra (or it just crit/auto crit).

There are still many thing we do not know which both makes me excited and nervous for the tool tips to come out of the media tour.

[Aco505]

I found the reasoning behind checking timers on MNK funny when VPR has several...

I'm also surprised that the 10 chakra limit is exclusively during BH. It'd have made more sense imho to make it permanent while not letting meditate give more than 5 chakra.

[Silhart]

Okay so basically rather than buffs/a DOT you now have buffing GCDs and spending GCDS.

Dragon Kick gives you one "pip" of buffed nu-bootshine. Twin Snakes gives you two pips of buffed nu-true strike. Demolish gives you three pips of buffed nu-snap punch.

So the rotation outside of burst window is essentially the same, but now people don't have to watch buff timers and can look at the shiny Job Guage™.

With this in mind one guaranteed change is that we no longer need to refresh twin snakes buff before PB. Maybe a bit of complexity lost but not a big deal imo. As for how the 2 min burst window plays out I think that needs some more in-deptth theorycrafting. So we probably won't have the exact optimal drift as before but maybe in exchange you may need to think about having enough "pips" so that your Rising Phoenix PB sequence doesn't use unbuffed GCDs during party buffs. Maybe someone smarter than me can visualize this better or we can wait until media tour

Hmm, it's still a little sketchy, but I think I can see the potential in what you're saying. I would laugh (and be filled with joy) if Dawntrail MNK unintentionally turned out to be a cursed spreadsheet job. If we can't have Optimal Drift as it existed in Endwalker, then I can at least hope for something in the Media Tour to push us in the cursed spreadsheet direction. I'd even take having all six positionals back, but seeing as DRG lost yet another one, that seems unlikely. Please SE, just a crumb of optimisation is all I ask for.

I found the reasoning behind checking timers on MNK funny when VPR has several...

I'm also surprised that the 10 chakra limit is exclusively during BH. It'd have made more sense imho to make it permanent while not letting meditate give more than 5 chakra.

The reasoning is so weird. Monks have had timers for 10 years - I don't understand why it's an issue all of a sudden. I also disagree with their assertion that MNKs spend all their time staring at timers--that should not be the end-goal of MNK gameplay. I always thought it was more a bad habit that MNK players need to grow out of with practice. To me, MNK mastery means glancing at your timers for a split second, knowing instantly what your next 9 GCDs will be, then putting all your attention on raid mechs. But I guess this experience isn't as universal as I initially thought it was.

[ThorneDynasty]

What? Taking time to learn a DPS job? Not in FF14, everyone should be able to play everything virtually perfectly after a couple dungeon runs.

[echo78]

Good thing I gave up on this job years ago.

[Sunhwapark]

I always thought it was more a bad habit that MNK players need to grow out of with practice. To me, MNK mastery means glancing at your timers for a split second, knowing instantly what your next 9 GCDs will be, then putting all your attention on raid mechs. But I guess this experience isn't as universal as I initially thought it was.

It is like that in my opinion too - at least in a raider's approach, learning the basics > fitting those basics into mechanics for a clear > optional encounter specific optimisation for stuff like double solar openers etc.

Based on the live-letter presentation and the fact that right out of the gate they mentioned that the changes to all classes are in favour of 'ease of usability' - I can only feel a bit anxious about how they expect us to play for the next few years until we get the proper tool-tips from the media tour.

[Ayden]

This hinges on the specifics of the new resources built by Twin Snakes (Raptor Gauge) and Demolish (Coeurl Gauge). If the Raptor gauge buffs all Raptor form GCDs and the Coeurl Gauge buffs all Coeurl form GCDs, then the rotation remains as is. If they just buff True Strike and Snap Punch it\\'s gonna get weird.

Right now Monk\\'s downtime rotation is as follows. I\\'ve put what the new gauges will sit at if we need to use them gauge to buff the reapplication of Twin Snakes and Demolish in parenthesis to illustrate how it will look if it doesn\\'t change. I\\'m just calling them O, R and C for Opo Opo, Raptor, and Coeurl gauges respectively.

DK>TwS>Dem (O:1 R:2 C:3)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:1 C:2)
DK>TwS>SP (O:1 R:0>2 C:1)
Bs>TrS>Dem (O:0 R:1 C:O>3)
DK>TwS>SP (O:1 R:0>2 C:2)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:1 C:1)
DK>TwS>Dem (O:1 R:0>2 C:0>3)

However if the new resource only buffs True Strike and Snap Punch then what the rotation turns into is:

DK>TwS>Dem (O:1 R:2 C:3)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:1 C:2)
DK>TrS>SP (O:1 R:0 C:1)
BS>TwS>SP (O:0 R:2 C:0)
DK>TrS>Dem (O:1 R:1 C:3)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:0 C:2)
DK>TwS>SP (O:1 R:2 C:1)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:1 C:0)
DK>TrS>Dem (O:1 R:0 C:3)
BS>TwS>SP (O:0 R:2 C:2)
DK>TrS>SP (O:1 R:1 C:1)
BS>TrS>SP (O:0 R:0 C:0)

Which is a huge change to Monk\\'s gameplay outside of its burst window.

I think it is the latter, where only Bootshine, True Strike and Snap Punch will be buffed. The new gauge is there for us to see, right? The gauge information is only useful if the following is true.

When the gauge is filled - use Boot, True Strike or Snap Punch.

When the gauge is empty - use DK, TS or Demolish to refill the gauge.

[Silhart]

It is like that in my opinion too - at least in a raider's approach, learning the basics > fitting those basics into mechanics for a clear > optional encounter specific optimisation for stuff like double solar openers etc.

Based on the live-letter presentation and the fact that right out of the gate they mentioned that the changes to all classes are in favour of 'ease of usability' - I can only feel a bit anxious about how they expect us to play for the next few years until we get the proper tool-tips from the media tour.

It is quite concerning. If new MNK turns out to be as shallow as we feared, then I feel like we'll be stuck with that for many more expansions to come. I know there are talks of reworking the jobs in 8.0, but realistically I don't see how they can make significant changes without pissing off the players who end up enjoying the new MNK. And I'm sure there will be a lot of them, judging by how popular Endwalker SMN turned out to be.

The 'ease of usability' mention (combined with Yoshi-P's comment that maybe the game has become too 'easy') does make me think that the game's difficulty will be focused on encounter design from here on out. Progging savage will no doubt be a fun experience, but once the mechanics have been mastered, there's honestly not much room left to grow, especially in a game where every mechanic and GCD can be timelined on a spreadsheet to the exact second. Reclears will become incredibly stale without anything to optimise on our jobs. I wish CBU3 would reconsider their course of action, but if this is what the people want...

[VentVanitas]

It is quite concerning. If new MNK turns out to be as shallow as we feared, then I feel like we'll be stuck with that for many more expansions to come. I know there are talks of reworking the jobs in 8.0, but realistically I don't see how they can make significant changes without pissing off the players who end up enjoying the new MNK. And I'm sure there will be a lot of them, judging by how popular Endwalker SMN turned out to be.

nah. I sincerely believe MNK will still be unpopular, especially so when there's a new melee that's cannibalizing some of its niches. this is the third (fourth if you count 5.4 MNK) time in a row we've seen people go "finally! they made MNK easier, now I can play it!" and none of them have ever actually made the job sustain any kind of popularity. I don't have any reason to believe that Dawntrail will be any different.