Another Bahamut? Why not Odin? (SMN 7.0 job action PLL feedback)

[ThorneDynasty]

Adapting a defeatist mentallity is the worst thing to advise. Have we not learned anything from DRK and Healer treatment?

That's kind of a false dichotomy. The problem with tanks and healers isn't that they are too focused on wowing us with visuals. Hell, like the only real visual treat ability for the tanks was the Confiteor combo for PLD, which actually flowed really nicely into the rotation, before they butchered the job for completely separate reasons.

It's perfectly valid to ask better than dropping a tablecloth on SCH or a Bahamut reskin for SMN, that's not the thing that's going to hold the jobs down.

[rawker]

I agree though my argument is not to settle for less. Being thankful that they didn't make the job worse is already accepting defeat. It's harder to pull oneself out of quicksand when half of your body have already sunk.

[Ramiee]

Just be thankful if they aren't making your favorite job mechanically worse.

Im glad I have permission to be a hater.

[ShadowNyx3]

Locking levi-shiva-ramuh behind a demi accomplishes nothing.

Sure, the amount dopamine will get you through a few days or weeks of eye candy and then it will just be back to the same thing. No variation, just reskins. No reward, no sense of urgency, no significant situational benefit. All flash, no substance.

Thank you for pointing this out cause this is really all that matters for the future of SMN. Unfortunately, this job is doomed to be torn to shreds by not fulfilling people's personal fantasy for how it should look, and any discussion of the actual meat of it is going to be dwarfed by people complaining about aesthetics. So it's always good to try and interject with actual substance.

You are completely missing the point Eorzean_username is making: Of course it's all flash and no substance, that's clearly the most we should expect from 7.0, and the devs are more or less saying that part out loud. Just be thankful if they aren't making your favorite job mechanically worse. So if flash is the best we can hope for, then at least don't skimp on the flash.

What is the actual point in only providing feedback on the aesthetics of the job? They already made the decisions for this expansion, so if people aren't happy with the substance then they need to provide that feedback now so that the devs know before they start working on job identity.

It's really disingenuous to tell anyone complaining about substance that they shouldn't have expected more because nobody knew the goal of 7.0 jobs was aesthetics before the job live letter.

[Eorzean_username]

First of all, I know text doesn't have a tone, so just to be clear, I naturally write extremely-fast and am a bit acerbic, but this isn't meant to sound harsh, and shouldn't be imagined as "going off"... I'm just tired, and perhaps slightly exasperated.

What is the actual point in only providing feedback on the aesthetics of the job? They already made the decisions for this expansion, so if people aren't happy with the substance then they need to provide that feedback now so that the devs know before they start working on job identity.

I mean, you could just flip that around and say, "They already made their decisions for Job Gameplay for this expansion, so what is the point of only providing feedback on the gameplay of the job?"

But in reality, positioning these things as mutually-exclusive is what's actually disingenuous. The devs are grown-ups, they can process feedback about Art choices and feedback about Gameplay choices simultaneously.

And if they actually can't even manage that, then nothing else we say is going to save the situation.

It's really disingenuous to tell anyone complaining about substance that they shouldn't have expected more because nobody knew the goal of 7.0 jobs was aesthetics before the job live letter.

I don't even know where this is coming from, because if you read my actual posts, I repeatedly reaffirm my dissatisfaction with SMN 6.0 Job Design, my reasons for disliking it, and what I would like to see changed.

And so, yeah, no one is telling you not to complain about "substance", even ignoring how subjective that concept is (and basically translates to, "What I personally actually care about"). Feel free. Go wild. Make 20 separate Threads about Summoner Gameplay Issues.

All I ever said was, basically, "Yo, devs, if you've already given up on accomplishing anything meaningful, could you at least let us finally fulfill the aesthetic and fantasy part?"

I'm tired of using the same "McDonald's Happy Meal + Side Salad" Primal colour-scheme since ARR. Especially after 6.0 Summoner mutilated the entire Job in order to, at least, provide a pathway to letting Summoners "feel like Summoners".

I (un?)reasonably expected that pathway would be utilised in the future to finish filling-in other conspicuously-lacking aspects of the Summoner fantasy presentation. The developers instead chose to set a bar so low that it could be used to play a game of Limbo in the Mariana Trench with "What if Bahamut was a Fetal Ultrasound?".

So, yes, I'm disappointed, and using my 15 USD / Month high-roller Forum Privileges to express that disappointment, and to further-express that I'm personally okay with even mechanically-underwhelming methods of getting access to the missing 3 "core Summons", if I am forced to choose between that and nothing.

I already made a post back in 2023 outlining a way to implement Levi/Ramuh/Shiva in mechanically-unique ways, along with an Astral/Umbral System, and a capstone more interesting than "What if Hydaelyn had a Fursona?"

The developers merrily ignored it, along with the 34849289 other Summoner feedback posts since 6.0.

So I said, "Wow, okay, I guess this is the season of Not Even Trying Any More. In that case, can you just shove the remaining Elements into whatever you seem actually willing to do?"

If you still want to try to cook-up whacky zany schemes to completely-revolutionise Summoner, and refuse to accept Levi/Ramuh/Shiva until they can provide you with thrilling and never-before-seen new heights of incredible gameplay ideas, then feel free to do so.

If the developers listen to you? Fantastic, I get to benefit from it too.

But I'm tired, man. You can keep trying to fix Summoner "properly". At this point, I just want to throw electric old men at my enemies.

[ThorneDynasty]

Thank you for pointing this out cause this is really all that matters for the future of SMN. Unfortunately, this job is doomed to be torn to shreds by not fulfilling people's personal fantasy for how it should look, and any discussion of the actual meat of it is going to be dwarfed by people complaining about aesthetics. So it's always good to try and interject with actual substance.



What is the actual point in only providing feedback on the aesthetics of the job? They already made the decisions for this expansion, so if people aren't happy with the substance then they need to provide that feedback now so that the devs know before they start working on job identity.

It's really disingenuous to tell anyone complaining about substance that they shouldn't have expected more because nobody knew the goal of 7.0 jobs was aesthetics before the job live letter.

Now you are just strawmanning. Literally where did I say it's a good thing or you aren't allowed to criticize the mechanics of the job? Isn't that what you are doing, saying you shouldn't to criticize aesthetics? Or did you read "be thankful if they aren't making your favorite job mechanically worse" as anything but a criticism of the current gameplay design, a parody of what we are hearing from the devs? Guess we really need the whole /s thing.

If the devs themselves are saying "wait for 8.0, maybe" for any mechanical criticism is addressed, while 7.0 at best adds flashy but not very substantial finishers, then it's fair as fuck to expect at least the flashiness to be on point.

[Rekujin]

Give us Shiva and Ramuh already lol, or let us swap out Garuda/Ifrit for those 2, same abilities/concept just a visual change.

[rawker]

Passing by to leave this gem

This.

https://i.imgur.com/17SJPHL.mp4

Credit goes to Mr.Mansome over discord for sharing this very enlightening video showcasing peak bad design

I hope there's still 1 line in the macro to fit Solar Bahamut.

[Memyx]

I love current SMN, and see no problems with what's coming to it in 7.0. I've played every iteration of it since ARR, and this is my favorite.