Another Bahamut? Why not Odin? (SMN 7.0 job action PLL feedback)

[Ianmaru]

There is no “I need to summon this now” about getting a mana regen from shiva

??
there is. lets say I used 2 primals already, and have 4 primals left, but then my MP is only 2k left, I'd definitely choose to summon Shiva instead of the other 3.
and that HH on P10S? I'll definitely save Leviathan to be summoned during HH for the party shield.
That high mobility purgation on P7S? I'll definitely use Ramuh there instead of the other primals available at the time due to Ramuh's movement buff.
The element of choice is real.
Idk but at this point it seems you just want to debate and argue anything I say. Doesn't seem so productive so nah I'm out.

[Supersnow845]

??
there is. lets say I used 2 primals already, and have 4 primals left, but then my MP is only 2k left, I'd definitely choose to summon Shiva instead of the other 3.
and that HH on P10S? I'll definitely save Leviathan to be summoned during HH for the party shield.
That high mobility purgation on P7S? I'll definitely use Ramuh there instead of the other primals available at the time due to Ramuh's movement buff.
The element of choice is real.
Idk but at this point it seems you just want to debate and argue anything I say. Doesn't seem so productive so nah I'm out.

My brother in Christ you came in refuting my point that I don’t think that shiva ramuh and leviathan constitute useful changes to SMN pushing your own example of how you think (which I don’t) gives the job meaningful change then when i say I don’t agree and explain my reasoning you say you are sick of arguing

Did you just expect me to read your example and go “yes flawless, yoshi p do this exact thing”

[MagiusNecros]

They should make Phoenix or Bahamut a choice for the player to make. It's what you can do in PvP. Or any other FF game. Choose what best fits the situation.

The current rotation as we know it will make any utility for Phoenix Regen or Rekindle worthless every 3 minutes.

[Ianmaru]

My brother in Christ you came in refuting my point that I don’t think that shiva ramuh and leviathan constitute useful changes to SMN pushing your own example of how you think (which I don’t) gives the job meaningful change then when i say I don’t agree and explain my reasoning you say you are sick of arguing

Did you just expect me to read your example and go “yes flawless, yoshi p do this exact thing”

I expected you to be open minded and see the possibility that you might have overlooked, instead of keep denying the obvious. saying "There is no “I need to summon this now” about getting a mana regen from shiva" is your grasping at straw moment.

Try properly refuting my last examples about the element of choice, instead of only "nah those are not real choices", then I'll listen.

[Supersnow845]

I expected you to be open minded and see the possibility that you might have overlooked, instead of keep denying the obvious. saying "There is no “I need to summon this now” about getting a mana regen from shiva" is your grasping at straw moment.

Try properly refuting my last examples about the element of choice, instead of only "nah those are not real choices", then I'll listen.

Because your entire idea of there being choice in the immediate period hinges on the idea that you didn’t do the same set of things 2 minutes ago

Let’s use the shiva mana regen idea (and not as a joke but seriously). You said “oh crap I’m at 2k mana I need to summon shiva now”. Why are you on 2k mana, you would have summoned shiva in the last 2 minute window. SMN doesn’t really chain rezz like RDM and you don’t have primals immediately accessible after death so shiva will basically just become lucid dreaming because if they tax your mana enough to desperately need it then you will use it on CD, if they don’t then it’s basically a wonky recovery tool you can’t fully control like the current phoenix heals

As for the example of ramuh that basically amounts to a movement speed buff that could easily just be any instacast primal.

Think of it this way imagine you are a SCH and every two minutes you are obligated to cast seraph, expedient, illumination, indom, excog and dissipation. You can choose roughly which order you cast them in but you can you have to cast them roughly 20 seconds apart. Would this work for a healing design……..very likely not. And that’s because you are forced to press what you don’t need to complete the loop and also you don’t have full control over when you can press them or cancel one to receive another

Your idea is fantastic if the fights were two minutes long, but the necessity of pressing utility you don’t need because it’s a DPS gain to do within a 2 minute loop is too restrictive and ruins the idea. If the rotation was 5 minutes so you roughly had 2 full loops per fight you could even work with that but 2 minutes is too short of a time to organise 6 independent utility skills that must be pressed roughly 20 seconds apart, cannot be pressed in the 1 or 2 minute burst window cannot be overlapped without massive damage loss and must all be pressed for optimal damage

[Ianmaru]

Because your entire idea of there being choice in the immediate period hinges on the idea that you didn’t do the same set of things 2 minutes ago

...(cont.)

Good points. My idea might be flawed, but the fact that having 6 options instead of 3 options would add depth to SMN is still true.
if youre saying Ramuh's utility is redundant due to the 3 instant cast primals, then make all the other 5 primals long cast and only ramuh instant cast. or maybe make ramuh movement boost partywide like SCH's expedient, while one other primal, say, titan, is also instant cast, good for personal movement, but cant help the party.
saving Leviathan's utility for healing check is also still relevant even though its only within 2 mins window.
and maybe change one of the primals, lets say garuda, utility to raise, so when both healer's dead, you'll prioritize summoning garuda over everything else. (although its weird giving raise utility to a primal other than phoenix)
or they can even make a different approach: separate the 6 primals based on AoE and single target, 2 for AoE, 2 for single target, 2 flex (falloff damage) (just like NIN has 7 mudra, 2 for AoE, 3 for single target, 2 for utility), but then it means there's no obligation to summon each one of them every 2 mins.
the possibility is a lot when we have 6 primals, instead of only 3. and again having 6 primals instead of only 3 still adds the sorely lacking depths to the job, even though not to the level of nonstandard BLM.

[Supersnow845]

I admit I didn’t explain why I didn’t think it would add meaningful depth very well. For my part the reason why the proposed changes wouldn’t amount to much to me is because at the end of the day you still need to press all 6 and each individual one doesn’t really do much other than add visual flavour to the spells and offer a slight utility. In a sense it’s still the “ifrit problem” just with a few more options. Since it has those few more options is it objectively more complex……..yes. Do I really think that complexity is meaningful in terms of job progression…….not really (no hate against you just explaining my opinion)

That also plays into why I offered the suggested design I did. Once you have picked a primal your rotation for that primal mini phase is set in stone. They are so simple you functionally order their summoning based on their disadvantages. That’s why I offered the alternative I did. Giving each primal different reasons to shorten or extend different parts of their rotation to achieve different things to me is more interesting than adding 3 new primals then organising all 6 functionally based on minor utility optimisation

[Ianmaru]

well the alternative you offered would add depth to the SMN alright. not a bad design at all, even though by overhauling how T/G/I works. The idea I suggested was made with 'no overhaul' limitation in mind, so naturally the depth that can be added is also limited.
Now if we both go without the 'no overhaul' limitation, and see how much depth can be added to the job, I still think having 6 primals instead of only 3 primals will serve better for SMN, whose identity is summoning the right primal at the right time.

EDIT: 'serve better for SMN' as in having 6 primals can add more depth more easily than having only 3 primals.

[rawker]

This wouldn't be an issue should Bahamut and Phoenix are not treated as special summons. Also, this wouldn't also be an issue if the pet management were not taken away from the job.

The formula was already there: you started off summoning Carbuncle, then learned to summon the Egi's... then the trances... Logical evolution of the job should've been being able to summon the primals as a trance of the Egis.. but no. EW SMN happened.

[Khryseis_Astra]

I'm kinda disappointed too for the SMN. An another Bahamut could have been something else. Odin and Alexander are Optionnal bosses so it's understandable why we will probably never got those, but Leviathan, Ramuh and Shiva are mandatory bosses, that's why most people think we should get them at some point which actually make sense.

They also round out our elemental wheel… we have fire, earth & wind, with them we would have water, lightning and ice. And I like someone else’s idea of having astral/umbral phases as well, and possibly being able to choose which demi you use next. The basic rotation would remain the same most likely… demi, 3 gems, demi, 3 gems, demi… and adding summons that could reuse the gem buttons adds new actions without button bloat. It also leaves the door open to get other triads of summons in the future.

I understand that some might think adding Levi-Ramuh-Shiva doesn’t add anything to complexity. And I’m sure there are ways that more complexity could be worked into their inclusion. But even if it’s just having them there, with their models, their attacks, their animations, while essentially giving the same potencies as the original gem set so as not to upset the all-important 2 minute meta (sigh), that still adds a lot more variety and flavor to the job. It would make the job feel more complete to me at least. And definitely more fun!

Pictomancer is going to have a full elemental spell kit from the looks of it. I want that for Summoner too. The lore reasons why we can’t have mostly been explained away at this point, it wouldn’t take much to justify them. Obviously I’m one of those who likes the job design of new SMN, and I enjoy playing it, I just think they need to build on it further. We need more gems before demis!