Another Bahamut? Why not Odin? (SMN 7.0 job action PLL feedback)

[Flana]

SMN is becoming Bahamut Cultist.

Summoner has been Bahamut Cultist since Heavensward. This is all the job will ever be, varying flavours of Coil Mage.

[Ianmaru]

I’m m not a particular fan of the shiva/levi/ramuh idea because they have totally failed to make the current primals interesting but that’s still a damn sight better than giving it the healer treatment

not only in terms of visual, shiva/levi/ramuh can definitely be used to improve the currently lacking depth of SMN gameplay and fix the job. (here's an example)

[Supersnow845]

not only in terms of visual, shiva/levi/ramuh can definitely be used to improve the currently lacking depth of SMN gameplay and fix the job. (here's an example)

An example like that doesn’t really fix SMN’s problems because SMN’s problems are the fact that the rotation is far far too rigid and each primal doesn’t do enough to justify its own existence

Let’s say we apply you idea in practice. S/L/R have 2 long cast primals between them and one of them regens mana. There is no choice. The primals are designed to be exactly long enough to fill the window between your Demi’s so shiva’s mana regen is just a free given. With 2 hard cast primals pheonix is just arbitrarily less mobile than Bahamut; but you can’t control which Demi you summon next so you can’t play around that, you just have to be less mobile during that phase with no recourse. Compare that to something like BLM with triple cast or PIC with weapon motif.

As long as you can’t control which Demi you summon next the primals amount to visual flavour you can’t do anything with. However if you introduce choice then one dominates and leaves the other one in the dust, let’s use your example again. Let’s say both halves do the same damage and you retain SMN’s current rough mana neutrality. You’d never use S/L/R because T/G/I is more mobile. Let’s say that SMN was made strongly mana negative, then T/G/I would barely be used. If T/G/I did more damage but SMN was strongly mana negative. That could potentially introduce a miasma style 2 choice

Regardless all this hinges on choice being introduced, the current rigid rotation with S/L/R really adds nothing to the job. Adding internal complexity to the current 4 phase rotation per minute I think is a better way forward, I’d even be in support of making them longer and more complex but adding limits, like each phase is 35 seconds but Bahamut is still on a 1 minute timer but you need to cast all three astral flows to proc Bahamut to be able to summon. So how much of each phase do you skip by overwriting it with a different primal to maintain the 1 minute loop

[Ianmaru]

An example like that doesn’t really fix SMN’s problems because SMN’s problems are the fact that the rotation is far far too rigid and each primal doesn’t do enough to justify its own existence

Let’s say we apply you idea in practice. S/L/R have 2 long cast primals between them and one of them regens mana. There is no choice. The primals are designed to be exactly long enough to fill the window between your Demi’s so shiva’s mana regen is just a free given. With 2 hard cast primals pheonix is just arbitrarily less mobile than Bahamut; but you can’t control which Demi you summon next so you can’t play around that, you just have to be less mobile during that phase with no recourse. Compare that to something like BLM with triple cast or PIC with weapon motif.

As long as you can’t control which Demi you summon next the primals amount to visual flavour you can’t do anything with. However if you introduce choice then one dominates and leaves the other one in the dust, let’s use your example again. Let’s say both halves do the same damage and you retain SMN’s current rough mana neutrality. You’d never use S/L/R because T/G/I is more mobile. Let’s say that SMN was made strongly mana negative, then T/G/I would barely be used. If T/G/I did more damage but SMN was strongly mana negative. That could potentially introduce a miasma style 2 choice

Regardless all this hinges on choice being introduced, the current rigid rotation with S/L/R really adds nothing to the job. Adding internal complexity to the current 4 phase rotation per minute I think is a better way forward, I’d even be in support of making them longer and more complex but adding limits, like each phase is 35 seconds but Bahamut is still on a 1 minute timer but you need to cast all three astral flows to proc Bahamut to be able to summon. So how much of each phase do you skip by overwriting it with a different primal to maintain the 1 minute loop

ok first maybe I'm not being clear enough with the explanation, since I was just adding to the idea that someone had that I quote replied to.
basically with S/L/R, theres no '2nd halves'. every 1 minute, you have 6 options to choose from, and every 2 mins loop rotation, youre meant to summon each one of them. so if you use all the 3 high mobility primals on the first half, then you're stuck with low mobility primals on the 2nd half. which makes it not rigid. you might want to prioritize using the low mobility one first if you can, and save the high mobility for the boss mech that needs it. also naturally high mobility primals has lower damage output compared to the low mobility ones. and so on and so on.

[Supersnow845]

ok first maybe I'm not being clear enough with the explanation, since I was just adding to the idea that someone had that I quote replied to.
basically with S/L/R, theres no '2nd halves'. every 1 minute, you have 6 options to choose from, and every 2 mins loop rotation, youre meant to summon each one of them. so if you use all the 3 high mobility primals on the first half, then you're stuck with low mobility primals on the 2nd half. which makes it not rigid. you might want to prioritize using the low mobility one first if you can, and save the high mobility for the boss mech that needs it. also naturally high mobility primals has lower damage output compared to the low mobility ones. and so on and so on.

That really only fixes the arbitrary mobility difference across the two one minute halves but doesn’t really fix anything else. The rotation is still arbitrarily limited because all 6 have to come out once per 2 minutes and none really justify their existence because you have to summon every one to fill the gap between the demis

[Ianmaru]

That really only fixes the arbitrary mobility difference across the two one minute halves but doesn’t really fix anything else. The rotation is still arbitrarily limited because all 6 have to come out once per 6 minutes and none really justify their existence because you have to summon every one to fill the gap between the demis

every primal has their own unique utility, remember? their utility is what justifies their existence, on top of having 6 options instead of only 3.
also 'only fix a part' is still a fix. it still add depths, my point stands.
if you think the depth added by a total of 6 primals is not enough depth, then give me an example where you can add even deeper depth by only having the current 3 primals without overhauling the gameplay.

[MagiusNecros]

They should make Phoenix or Bahamut a choice for the player to make. It's what you can do in PvP. Or any other FF game. Choose what best fits the situation.

The current rotation as we know it will make any utility for Phoenix Regen or Rekindle worthless every 3 minutes.

[Ianmaru]

Because your entire idea of there being choice in the immediate period hinges on the idea that you didn’t do the same set of things 2 minutes ago

...(cont.)

Good points. My idea might be flawed, but the fact that having 6 options instead of 3 options would add depth to SMN is still true.
if youre saying Ramuh's utility is redundant due to the 3 instant cast primals, then make all the other 5 primals long cast and only ramuh instant cast. or maybe make ramuh movement boost partywide like SCH's expedient, while one other primal, say, titan, is also instant cast, good for personal movement, but cant help the party.
saving Leviathan's utility for healing check is also still relevant even though its only within 2 mins window.
and maybe change one of the primals, lets say garuda, utility to raise, so when both healer's dead, you'll prioritize summoning garuda over everything else. (although its weird giving raise utility to a primal other than phoenix)
or they can even make a different approach: separate the 6 primals based on AoE and single target, 2 for AoE, 2 for single target, 2 flex (falloff damage) (just like NIN has 7 mudra, 2 for AoE, 3 for single target, 2 for utility), but then it means there's no obligation to summon each one of them every 2 mins.
the possibility is a lot when we have 6 primals, instead of only 3. and again having 6 primals instead of only 3 still adds the sorely lacking depths to the job, even though not to the level of nonstandard BLM.

[Supersnow845]

I admit I didn’t explain why I didn’t think it would add meaningful depth very well. For my part the reason why the proposed changes wouldn’t amount to much to me is because at the end of the day you still need to press all 6 and each individual one doesn’t really do much other than add visual flavour to the spells and offer a slight utility. In a sense it’s still the “ifrit problem” just with a few more options. Since it has those few more options is it objectively more complex……..yes. Do I really think that complexity is meaningful in terms of job progression…….not really (no hate against you just explaining my opinion)

That also plays into why I offered the suggested design I did. Once you have picked a primal your rotation for that primal mini phase is set in stone. They are so simple you functionally order their summoning based on their disadvantages. That’s why I offered the alternative I did. Giving each primal different reasons to shorten or extend different parts of their rotation to achieve different things to me is more interesting than adding 3 new primals then organising all 6 functionally based on minor utility optimisation

[Ianmaru]

well the alternative you offered would add depth to the SMN alright. not a bad design at all, even though by overhauling how T/G/I works. The idea I suggested was made with 'no overhaul' limitation in mind, so naturally the depth that can be added is also limited.
Now if we both go without the 'no overhaul' limitation, and see how much depth can be added to the job, I still think having 6 primals instead of only 3 primals will serve better for SMN, whose identity is summoning the right primal at the right time.

EDIT: 'serve better for SMN' as in having 6 primals can add more depth more easily than having only 3 primals.