Stop the Grind-to-the-Endgame madness!

[rina_inverse]

tldr|Not a rat-race|tldr

great idea for 2.0

[Neptune]

Totally agree.

[Hyrist]

The sad part about all of this is Dulle is right.

Why does a specific set of players want to force other players to slow down? Because they know that this is a rat race no matter how you slice it, no matter how hard or enjoyable you make it. People like being max level, and many will rush to do so as soon as possible.

That leaves those who wish to stop and smell the roses:
A) In the minority.
B) Feeling left behind.

And some of those who would rush regardless don't like expedient levels because:

A) Can't feel superior when the average player hits level cap quickly.
B) They have to share their levels and endgame content with the [strike]unwashed[/strike] unskilled masses.

That's the sum of it. There's nothing constructive at all in dragging out the level content. You can fill it in with optional things that you may enjoy along the way, and that's fine. Fights that are worthwhile, loot that will entice you to stay just for collection's sake. Stories that you want to savor. That's all well in good.

But trying to drag players done for any of the above reasons listed is just fool hearty. We're not in the business of discouraging people. So long as it's not hurting others let people play the way they want - even if that means they don't want to play with you, or play your way.

[Tricksy]

The sad part about all of this is Dulle is right.

Why does a specific set of players want to force other players to slow down? Because they know that this is a rat race no matter how you slice it, no matter how hard or enjoyable you make it. People like being max level, and many will rush to do so as soon as possible.

That leaves those who wish to stop and smell the roses:
A) In the minority.
B) Feeling left behind.

And some of those who would rush regardless don't like expedient levels because:

A) Can't feel superior when the average player hits level cap quickly.
B) They have to share their levels and endgame content with the [strike]unwashed[/strike] unskilled masses.

That's the sum of it. There's nothing constructive at all in dragging out the level content. You can fill it in with optional things that you may enjoy along the way, and that's fine. Fights that are worthwhile, loot that will entice you to stay just for collection's sake. Stories that you want to savor. That's all well in good.

But trying to drag players done for any of the above reasons listed is just fool hearty. We're not in the business of discouraging people. So long as it's not hurting others let people play the way they want - even if that means they don't want to play with you, or play your way.

I disagree, I think it is a strong aspect of a video games story to slowly become the hero, not become a master in a few weeks or less. In an MMO its even more important that we feel we are slowly growing and learning.

It becaomes doubly useful when interesting and deep mid level content is availiable throughout this leveling process.

I guess that is an old way to look at an MMO though. Some people think they should quickly get through the leveling process and on to grinding endgame content. Personally I feel this destroys immersion and the rpg factor and makes the game like a lobby action game. Oh well

[Duelle]

I disagree, I think it is a strong aspect of a video games story to slowly become the hero, not become a master in a few weeks or less. In an MMO its even more important that we feel we are slowly growing and learning.

This can be done through storylines and quests presented. That's where you can get real tangible character growth, which can go hand in hand with leveling if properly implemented. XIV in part is already doing this with the way the job quests work. It just needs to be polished and taken further as we progress. It also makes our characters part of a story, which is something that is lost very easily in grind-based MMOs, despite it being a key aspect of the RPG.

[Tricksy]

I enjoyed party grinding in FF11. It was no race for me. I enjoyed twinking new jobs after i had started making money and I enjoyed conversations with new people while fighting. I think we should all remember that we all have opinions but there is no objective right way to play, nor objective MMO standards.

[Jynx]

You can fill it in with optional things that you may enjoy along the way, and that's fine. Fights that are worthwhile, loot that will entice you to stay just for collection's sake. Stories that you want to savor. That's all well in good.

But trying to drag players done for any of the above reasons listed is just fool hearty.

Not sure I understand this.

How do you put content in the mid-levels of the game, when the mid-levels of the game have been reduced to a casual afternoon? It's not about "Draging" the levels out it's about having them take a semblance of any time to even finish.

As it stands the game is a hillarious blurr at how quickly you can get most of the games content done outside of instances you require the "perfect" setup to get any real reward from. Crushing the game into a tiny cube doesn't help the fact it fosters a even more hostile endgame enviroment because people are all idling at max level. Content is designed so people don't have fun playing the job they want, they "Have fun" being forced to level every single job so you can be flexable and switch to monk at the end of Aurum Vale....

Everyone went to the dunes until 20. Everyone went to Qufim until 25. Everyone went to Kazham until 29/30. Everyone went to Altepa until 34/35. And so on. If you suggested anything outside of those people started dropping faster than anything because they knew they weren't going to be guaranteed easy kills for exp and because people tent to stay clear of the unknown.

snip

PS: Not entirely related, but while you may prefer to hide among your cluster of friends to avoid the standards and trends set by the masses, I like actually being able to play with the community without fear of being put down or ostrasized for my playstyle choices. If it means the design has to be streamlined in order for that to happen, then so be it.

So firstly I'd like to adress your "Everyone" definition. Do you mean people who didn't want to go outside of the box or do you think everyone always did those?

Last I checked one of the most popular blogs was Campsitarus (Knew the person who made it personally best guy ever) let's have a look at some of the out of the way camps thousands of players who hit the blog took their parties just to spice it up.

12-14 Meriphataud Mountains (Hill Lizard)
12-14 Maze of Shakhrami (Maze Maker)
12-14 Buburimu Peninsula (Snipper)
14-16 Buburimu Peninsula (Bull Dhalmel)
16-19 Buburimu Peninsula (Goblin/Shoal Pugil)

21-23 Carpenter's Landing (Diving Beetle/Shrieker)
22-24 Batallia Downs [S] (Lycopodium)
22-24 Rolanberry Fields [S] (Lycopodium)
22-24 Sauromugue Champaign [S] (Lycopodium)
23-25 Korroloka Tunnel (Clipper/Greater Pugil)
25-27 Grauberg [S] (Rock Eater)
25-27 North Gustaberg [S] (Rock Eater)

All of these and more, (Until the latest expansion that made leveling into a laughable event much like it is in XIV) you could enter most of these zones during prime-time and actually find a few people leveling in these places. off the beaten path because the "Standard" was either over-crowded or they just didn't feel like visiting the dunes for the umpteenth time.

WE HAD OPTIONS

Sure lots of people stuck to the tried and true camps that (In many cases were actually terrible) but were quick and easy consumption because they took the least effort to get to and complete. But the people willing to go the extra mile could, they could have a entire camp to themselves.

Now for the bulk of your post I'd just like to say that just because someone spent all of their anima and they have to wait...I don't see that sacrificing their fun they had tons of anima to spend how they seen fit. Shortcuts are cool and all but they need limitations and boundaries, perhaps this may come off as me feeling "I know better" but making people actually experience the game world shouldn't be a form of punishment. They should be forced to look at the game world every once in a while to show them that there is a game that exists outside of the towns and entrances to the instanced dungeons.

For the last part about me hiding behind a sheild of my friends, many of them I made in the game itself. I go out into my community and I am rarely "Mocked" people may find me a bit quirky but I guess it's the fact like in life I could give two ****s what someone thinks about how I play the game. If I go to a promyvion I do it with people who will play with me the way I play. When I play with strangers I don't "Fear" them, the game shouldn't have to compromise mechanics so people can never make a oddball choice that someone might say? RDM solo? You must be crazy....what an idiot never play with him.

People being unique and finding crazy things about the game should be part of it and encouraged. The developers should never streamline the game just becasue of social pressure that's a community problem not a development problem. How about you ostrasize people who try and belittle people for your playstyle and choices.

Tollerance is the worst solution, never ever suggest that you make the game streamlined so people can tollerate you and your playstyle. The community can take care of itself, we don't need the developers to play big-brother with game mechanics.

[Duelle]

So firstly I'd like to adress your "Everyone" definition. Do you mean people who didn't want to go outside of the box or do you think everyone always did those?

Last I checked one of the most popular blogs was Campsitarus (Knew the person who made it personally best guy ever) let's have a look at some of the out of the way camps thousands of players who hit the blog took their parties just to spice it up.

*yawn* You're trying to cling to semantics in order to try to prove a point. Fair enough. Should I have said "the majority"? It doesn't retract from what I said either way. There were specific places where people camped, and the rest of the game world went down the toilet either because of mob design, the camp being way out of what was reasonable travel and so on. If you tried to stray from those accepted trends, you found resistance. It was even worse when the princess jobs like Red Mages were involved, because you were stuck to their whims due to anyone with an MP bar being shackled to them.

For the last part about me hiding behind a sheild of my friends, many of them I made in the game itself. I go out into my community and I am rarely "Mocked" people may find me a bit quirky but I guess it's the fact like in life I could give two ****s what someone thinks about how I play the game. If I go to a promyvion I do it with people who will play with me the way I play. When I play with strangers I don't "Fear" them, the game shouldn't have to compromise mechanics so people can never make a oddball choice that someone might say? RDM solo? You must be crazy....what an idiot never play with him.

As someone who relies on pugging more than anything else, I'd prefer to not have hurdles to jump through to prove I know how to play. This means playstyles and chosen roles being viable. This always ends up going back to the Red Mage debate, as I am a proponent for the melee camp that got urinated on since the day we were given Refresh. So yes, I want game mechanics to make my choices acceptable in the eyes of the masses so that I am able to play as I choose in the content that matters.

People being unique and finding crazy things about the game should be part of it and encouraged.

Which often have unintended consequences, which can lead to bigger trouble as the game ages. There is such a thing known as balance, you know.

The developers should never streamline the game just becasue of social pressure that's a community problem not a development problem. How about you ostrasize people who try and belittle people for your playstyle and choices.

Tollerance is the worst solution, never ever suggest that you make the game streamlined so people can tollerate you and your playstyle. The community can take care of itself, we don't need the developers to play big-brother with game mechanics.

And so we come full circle. Here's the part that seems to somehow elude you over and over again:

Game mechanics dictate how the community reacts and behaves. FFXI and WoW have easily proven that "the community" cannot keep itself in check without crapping all over someone. FFXI was left to its devices, with such glorious examples as black mages soloing their levels, summoners being relegated to cure-bitching because Tanaka & Co were scared to death of them, melee RDM simply not working in a party setting due to design, thief becoming obsolete after lv60 pre-Abyssea (then reduced to TH-whore after), RDM ousting WHM as a healer, Ninja ousting paladin as tank, and much much more.

WoW's developers realized that "the community" needs hard-coded checks and balances to keep it from doing stupid things. Hence the hybrid redesign, rebalancing of content and group dynamics, spreading of buffs and debuffs, the nerfing of evasion tanking and so on. This was after close to four years of anyone with mana and healing spells being forced to be healbots (sound familiar?). Just like it wasn't fun to try to melee on RDM and being told you couldn't, it certainly wasn't fun being a Paladin and getting pigeonholed into healing.

So in short, no the community cannot take care of itself and needs something to regulate it because it has proven time and again capable of great stupidity. I lose a lot more allowing such stupidity to come about, so I'm not going to support anything that tries to make the game lean in that direction.

[Catas]

I'm hoping that a dungeon finder may substitute the need for social aspects that XI had with its level grinds. If they required these at every 10th level, even.. for every class.. I could see this a healthy blend of SWTOR/FFXI leveling process.

[YuriSan]

It's funny cause the people that are running sweaty in the heat agonizing in their suits rushing to their destination
will eventually end up being at the same spot with those who are walking relaxed wearing their shorts and straw hat, sipping on ice cold lemonade while enjoying the pretty trees and flowers.

So funny.

Peeps want to do endgame tho and that is also understandable.
Theres nothing to do as a lowbie other than level up ur jobs really... and thats boring!