Stop the Grind-to-the-Endgame madness!

[Rutelor]

Another aspect that I somehow lament, is the automatic granting of skills and spells, just on reaching some level. Somehow, the whole thing felt more organic when you had to quest, and toil, for your new abilities, once you reached the level.

Still, one more interesting addition to character growth would be to re-design something along the lines of FFXI Skill Levels, only this time not linked to spamming of actions, but rather to in-combat, in-party (ideally in-skillchain) use of the corresponding actions. That would certainly add some incentive to partying.

R

[Shurrikhan]

It does not really matter how you slice it - without flat out removing levels there is going to be content that is overlooked unless you make it relevant to endgame players. Period. If it is relevant to endgame players, the level the content is introduced is irrelevant.

Someone finally said the extreme yet reasonable. ...I'd love to remove levels as long as there are different ways to progress the character (gear/a reformed materia system/making one's own abilities/world-story/plots/NPC relationships/a vast number of other things that have no definitive place in 'levels' except to milestone that system, which is otherwise unneeded).

I don't see why every game has to try to poorly sum up all manners of progression in power (at least until endgame) into these clunky tiers.

That said, any progression of other sorts, when increasing stats more than complexity (and therefore skill-gap), will run into the same problem, even if less obviously or severely. But at the same time, the solution (a higher "level" being a higher grade of player who's able to take more advantage of his skill, not by stats but by increased skill-gap or tools of that sort) already sends development in the direction of better character development.

**Though it's not a major part of what I was saying earlier, let me address the idea of highest "levels" (combat power, really; though highest tiers can be found in plenty of other categories...) only being for elite players, a bit of a slippery slope off what I said above.

I honestly don't see a problem with this. If they became the elite of the game, they did so by playing elite-ly. That playstyle is not going to be appealing to others, or they'd already be playing that way, just how they enjoy it. Meanwhile those who prefer doing things besides pouring their efforts and skill into combat, can do that. Or both.

[Shurrikhan]

Still, one more interesting addition to character growth would be to re-design something along the lines of FFXI Skill Levels, only this time not linked to spamming of actions, but rather to in-combat, in-party (ideally in-skillchain) use of the corresponding actions. That would certainly add some incentive to partying.

It will add fun, sure, but the "incentive" by any other view already exist. There's no xp-splitting here. Do leves alone or do them with 6 other people -- same xp, at near player-multiple the speed. With rested xp, I've done 40-42 in around 18 minutes. Just have 8 leves for the area, and the highest difficulty you can get xp out of.

I guess I'm speaking a bit satirically though. I agree that fun should be the prime incentive in such choices - not there being something brokenly easy way to gain xp or the like. I just wish it was more often that people would look for their incentives in how actually enjoyable the process is.

<--I usually prefer to level solo. I'll often enjoy leveling with friends, but the hecticness and lack of ingenuity in party-play (especially given how well my current main, a Pugilist, can solo) burns me out quickly. When things die so fast, I feel like I'm fighting just to be useful, even if we're fighting enemies 4 to 6 levels above our own.

[Hyrist]

As far as skill, growth, and the development of players. I feel as if we're missing an important component in our information, which is Battle Regimine.

I can't comment on what the course of combat and character development of the game will be until we have info on this rather critical element of party combat. It could make all the difference if we have to quest for skills that becomes part of the powerful battle regimes. Which means you would have to gradually develop your character for party play and that party play would become more in depth.

But without any info, that's just wild speculation.

August cannot come soon enough.

[Gukie]

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[Shurrikhan]

I would like to entreat you to entertain conjecture of this:

A serious array of content at different levels of the game, all of them capped, and with auto level-sync features enabled. All of this content grants relevant gear that doesn't become obsolete (perhaps because it scales its stats as you advance in level). Make it difficult to obtain (I am not saying statistically impossible, mind you), but also make the content grant tangential rewards that, on their own, justify the time and energy expenditure on said content. Do this through organic planning that goes beyond the current level cap for the game, so that you don't find yourself constantly superseding items that were granted in past content. Or if you can't totally do this, at least keep revising the stats of the old gear, so that it never loses its viability in game.

This. I would love to a system that can auto-sync difficulty. As for gear, how about this simple option: you wear what you want to wear, and level the gear to your liking (within the limits of the gear) as you go. Some sets are more adaptable, other able to further push specifics, like AF gear into class-specific bonuses or primal gear into an encapsulating element. Realistically, a well made light leather jerkin will serve some style of play just as well as a legendary full-plate serves a raid tank.

The only issue after that is insuring that crafting remains a part through more than just repairing, without requiring it to level the gear. Really, you should be able to take a leather jerkin, eventually add rivets to make it studded leather, band it over with metal (banded leather) or attach scales (scale mail). These general armor-type differences should change how it levels, with a varying immediate change in stat composition (generally on a small change unless changes to the armor are drastic, playing off old stats to a new purpose) and then new lines of growth. "Attire" or "gestalt" composition of your gear should do likewise. Playing on components, with the ability to level something tangentially in common between all of the parts, or keeping them separate so they can be more fine-tuned to mixing and matching with other sets instead of to this one set. Materia then, really is essentially your leveling experience with that gear.

(I'm sure I'm missing a lot; this is going really quickly through my head.)

All that's left after that is how well you want stats to be usable for at least some playstyle of any class. Is it really such a bad idea to have a Lancer who wears a cloak, who uses high Mind to increase the blast radius of abilities like Impulse Drive and the effect of his Surges, intellect to increase the critical rating bonuses on Vorpal and Impulse, or in a random different combat system example, something like casting fire magic onto one enemy only to skewer it through the enemies behind him on an en-galed Lance. Any kind of stats should be useful to someone. Armor type, though getting even rarer between the two on an oddball class playstyle, as well.

[Rutelor]

As far as skill, growth, and the development of players. I feel as if we're missing an important component in our information, which is Battle Regimine.

I can't comment on what the course of combat and character development of the game will be until we have info on this rather critical element of party combat. It could make all the difference if we have to quest for skills that becomes part of the powerful battle regimes. Which means you would have to gradually develop your character for party play and that party play would become more in depth.

But without any info, that's just wild speculation.

August cannot come soon enough.

It's not wild speculation, but rather pre-emptive speculation I am trying to do here.

Many people (not saying you) prefer to stay in a blissful state of hopefulness, immersed in wishful thinking, hoping that the devs will deliver what they want; they feel that any posting here that tries to make sure we're all on the same page, and that tries to elicit a conversation for the community to speak up its mind before it is too late for changes, is just bursting their bubbles.

Assuming that what perhaps might happen WILL happen is wild speculation in its own right.

R

[Hyrist]

It's not wild speculation, but rather pre-emptive speculation I am trying to do here.

Many people (not saying you) prefer to stay in a blissful state of hopefulness, immersed in wishful thinking, hoping that the devs will deliver what they want; they feel that any posting here that tries to make sure we're all on the same page, and that tries to elicit a conversation for the community to speak up its mind before it is too late for changes, is just bursting their bubbles.

Assuming that what perhaps might happen WILL happen is wild speculation in its own right.

R

The same argument could be said by trying to preempt concerns this late in the development cycle. A lot of what you're talking about would require, as I staid before, sweeping changes to the entire system. If you are saying you are not liking what you have been hearing, that is one thing. But demanding it changed before even trying it is another.

I would describe myself in a state of suspense. I am waiting for information to truly speculate upon and an actual experience in 2.0 to give constructive feedback for.

I know it won't be perfect, I know there will be parts of the game I'm flat out not interested in and I'll state what will make me interested in it.


But as far as the general subject of grinding. We have two types of 'progression' typical in RPGs, especially MMORPGS. We've the level grind, and the gear grind. This game is much more about the gear grind than it is about the level grind, which is a good idea, considering most successful games right now are realizing that the level grind is simply not sitting well with the bulk of players these days. People like to have their full skillset to play with, and would rather improve through practice, than be carted around having multiple training wheels slowly being taken off as you go along.

It's why skillset games like League of Legends are becoming more and more popular, though that is a different genere.

We can acclimate some ideas of 'training to be good' by making quest chains for specific abilities (heck, even make us choose between training for one ability or another to further specialize.) But I really don't see FFXI's grind being a feasible mechanic here.

Again, I don't have enough info on the actual pacing of 2.0's leveling to judge. "Faster" by Yoshida's perspective may not be faster for us, who take every advantage we can get.

[Reyko]

I would love to know why everyone is so against a slower leveling pace akin to FFXI. Correct me if I'm wrong but FFXI still has a much larger population and imo FFXIV would have a population similar if they had simply taken the "Archaic" Mechanics that the new ADHD players don't want and put them into this game. I know that SE was going for a larger player-base but realistically they could at least get the amount of subs that FFXI had or close to if they had not gone the ADHD route for this game and you can argue that its not current MMO mechanics but i think what most of us wanted was an FF MMO not necessarily a "Current" MMO. Sorry thats my 2 cents.

[Durian]

You had me at

Fill the world with one thousand Shposhae

:~