[QUOTE=Rutelor;759853]

Subjectivity sways perception of the arts, and our opinion of them, but does not define them solely. There's plenty of objective territory, and room for argument.
Alas, now you push into the territory where the artist in me disagrees with the businessman in me.

Subjectivity is the essential aspect of art. It is how we subjectively view the world around us that becomes interpreted into form that makes art. In this case, the aesthetics as pertaining to the creator is most important, and the debate over it is part of what makes the art worthwile.

But the businessman reminds me that this isn't just art for arts sake, but rather a commercial art, in which case the goal is to sell the product. At that point there is a certain quantifiable set of variables to debate over, which we are now. It is subjective, but the subjective is focused to a target audience. The real question therin lies to Square Enix and Yoshida's crew - what is your target audiance, and how much of it can you capture and maintain? That is the ultimate goal here.

To the artists working under that goal, there is always the internal debate between your instincts of creating art for arts sake, and making the bottom line bigger. Where that line is drawn, as you said, is out of our hands, and I do not envy their position.


BTW, I didn't intend to make Wow the Coke to FFXI's Pepsi. I didn't mean for the parallel to work that way. But you are correct in your criticism. Coke vs. water does not cut it. May I suggest then sugared soda drinks vs. bottled mineral carbonated water? Not as zippy, but perhaps more valid.
You're talking quality of experience.

Speaking purely as a player, I understand what you mean, but again my personality comes into conflict with itself. If left with a choice between a healthy game and all the mechanics I wanted in it, I would sacrifice the mechanics.


The obvious corollary is one much closer to your own conclusion of compromise, which is what is exemplified in a correctly-functioning democratic government. To assert that I implied the contrary to the logical conclusion of my own argument is absurd.
Regardless, without clarification of such a term, others may have taken your words as such an absurd assumption, and I was moved as such to clarify to prevent such a reconstruction of you words. To be clear, we both agree that the answer is compromise.

I just wanted to dispel the notion that it is an absolute notion that FFXI and its qualities are completely excluded from all possible consideration in our argument because it was way outsold by WoW. Which is something you did seem to imply.
mm. Thats a good correction of my words. To be more clear, I believe that the leanings of compromise need to error leaning away from flaws of FFXI rather than towards its assets. This is because the track record of failed "WoW Clones." still net a higher subscription rate than FFXI at its peak. If we adapt FFXI concepts in there, it should be done with that fact in mind. We want to attract customers with Final Fantasy tropes, not push them away.

The implication I refer to above, however, does seem to dissipate when you speak of compromise. This I do agree with. What I don't agree with is the concept that commercial success is tantamount to beating WoW numbers, or even reaching them. That simplifies the situation far too much, and puts it in an unrealistically binary plane. I want a game that by definition will be more rarified, and therefore less populated than WoW was. Viable, and profitable, yes... self-sustainable, absolutely! But in my compromise I wouldn't sacrifice concepts that I consider important just to ensure the numbers match or exceed WoW's. It's obvious, however, that this point won't be subject to my call, since this is a private commercial venture, and I'm not a part of decision-making team. What I can do, however, is honestly and clearly try to express my position to see if it gains traction within the community; because as a collective within the player-base, we can make a difference in the outcome.
My standard is this: So long as the creators can capture the essence of what it means to be Final Fantasy within a game that keeps itself entertaining, and successful all else is open. But to do this with FFXI still in existence, FFXIV needs to seek it's own target audience. It can overlap, but it also has to appeal outside of FFXI's own scope to be successful.

I don't beleive FFXIV has the capasity to match WoW's audiance, nor do I beleive that should be the goal. Like you I beleive the audiance should be somewhat defined. But the definition for me is as simple as "Final Fantasy fans will enjoy this." Personally, if that is accomplished this game will be a success. However, given the diversity of those fans, that is still a tall order to fill.

That means various styles of gameplay, multiple references, a gripping story-line and a fun combat and progression system.

But beyond that, it also needs to be extensively replayable, as per the MMO mantra. That is a quality not really Final fantasy per se. The stories might get you to play again, but there have been no real mechanics that encourage replaying, like Chrono Trigger's Newgame+ (Ok, FFX-2 had it, and that was cool.)

Now there will always be differences in opinion, but I do beleive we still maintain the same goal. I ultimately agree with the general theme that Endgame should be reached as a natural conclusion, not as the goal you have at the start of the game. But to achieve that there needs to be a manner for endgame to reach down to the leveling base and vice versa. That latter part needs some work as far as lower levels reaching impact to help higher levels. I'm still thinking on how we can achieve that.


As far as leveling itself. Many of the Final Fantasy games were expertly paced based on their story, especially in some of the later games (Excluding 13). I think this is where they can tie in a proper leveling pacing. They've got good experience in this field and if they create an ever expanding story to fit with the level caps, we'll do fine.

I would like them to make this pacing better than it was in FFXI, however, which means faster than the old FFXI's pacing. Because, to be honest, you ran out of content before you ran into the next good series of quests, level wise in XI. If they can better fill that in, then the leveling pace is still going to seem fast, because you're drinking up rich story content.

Anyways, I'm out of time. I would like to talk more along the lines of what you and I would do as specifics for the compromises then. A way to keep leveling paces good for those who both want to get to endgame swiftly, and those who prefer to move casually along. I don't believe pacing should be enforced upon the player who wishes to progress quickly, but I do believe the slower one should be rewarded somehow for their patience. Is there some way we can achieve that? That would probably be a great framework to start from.