Positionals

[Reinha]

You keep posting this fallacy of equivocation when I've already explained there is a difference between consistency and homogeny. Maintaining a set of jobs with the same traits is not homogeny. No one is homogenizing melee jobs.

However what you are doing, adding another notch into all jobs being the same, is in fact homogeny at work.

If you don't want positionals, simply don't play melee. It's just that simple. If they're so negligible and so irrelevant, don't use them and stop making threads.

And if Viper doesn't have them, then great, play that. Your dps is probably going to be lower so don't bother us about parsing. Although everyone ITT has claimed this isn't motivated by effortless dps, so I'm sure you would be more than ok with Viper having inherently lower DPS.

I will keep posting what I please and it does not matter to me one bit if anyone who thinks themself a Melee Spokesperson loses sleep over the fact that people who don't like positionals would like to play melee without them and keep giving feedback. If such a melee job is released, you can take your own advice and just not play it. Speaking of fallacies, hopefully my commentary on Lyth's post has debunked the fallacy that people hate the melee role if they dislike positionals, which keeps getting repeated in this thread.

If viper doesn't have positionals, I will play that, that's the whole point. And "don't bother us about parsing" lol, you realise you are talking to a RPR main? Reaper dps is already the lowest of melee (and barely above bard according to some sources) despite having positionals, so it's kind of weird to try and justify the existence of positionals with the promise of a higher dps potential when my job is barely rewarded for having to be in melee range let alone having positionals.

[ZiraZ]

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Positionals

[Turtledeluxe]

I will keep posting what I please and it does not matter to me one bit if anyone who thinks themself a Melee Spokesperson loses sleep over the fact that people who don't like positionals would like to play melee without them and keep giving feedback. If such a melee job is released, you can take your own advice and just not play it. Speaking of fallacies, hopefully my commentary on Lyth's post has debunked the fallacy that people hate the melee role if they dislike positionals, which keeps getting repeated in this thread.

If viper doesn't have positionals, I will play that, that's the whole point. And "don't bother us about parsing" lol, you realise you are talking to a RPR main? Reaper dps is already the lowest of melee (and barely above bard according to some sources) despite having positionals, so it's kind of weird to try and justify the existence of positionals with the promise of a higher dps potential when my job is barely rewarded for having to be in melee range let alone having positionals.

It has nothing to do with being a "Melee Spokesperson"-- I am commenting on job homogeny in general and explaining the actual definition/application of homogeny. Removing positionals to produce a new set of melee that don't have positionals is exactly that. Maintaining positionals that exist across all melee is not homogeny. You can keep posting, you're still going to be using the term incorrectly.

And I also do not need to be a melee spokesperson to say that, if Viper has no positionals, you'll likely be looking at aDPS closer to MCH than RPR, i.e. a bigger disparity than what currently exists (not much of one) between the current melee classes.

Regarding BRD, the current state of its rDPS vs RPR makes complete sense and doesn't pose any contradiction. The aDPS of BRD is significantly lower.

I would also say that if it's true Xenosys mentioned this and is the source of this discontent, then he is unknowingly a job homogenist.

[Sjol]

It doesn't. Players just have a obsession to Optimize their own Fun away. Gotta optimize...

- Button Bloat, remove Job features
- Weaving issues, less APM
- Easier Movement, less Casts on new SMN
- Every shape slowly becomes a Circle AoE
- Positional Removal, True North can be deleted
- Remove margin for errors left-right-and-center
- Optimize Job balance, Screw your Fun
- Combo Compression and Auto Combo do it
- Remove Dots, its Archaic
- 2 min meta, everything lines up
- Gigantic Hitboxes, easier melee uptime
- Party buff radius increase, now you can't miss your Buffs
- Remove DPS variance, who cares about your random big numbers

There are reasons for a lot of these. Nuanced reasons, even that aren't really getting addressed.

Button bloat has to do with human ergonomics and the limits of what fits on a keyboard. MMO mice are not a solution for everyone. Nor are controllers. I have ready access to 16 buttons with a single modifier, leaving 32 for the keyboard, plus another 2+2 for the mouse, for a total of 36. Beyond that I'm hunting for the thing with a mouse. Thirty-six buttons ought to be enough for any job, but there are plenty that require more than that.

Here are some baseline numbers:

Tanks (7 role + 4 general)
PLD: 27 job, 38 total.

Melee DPS (6 role + 4 general)
NIN: 26 job, 36 total.

Ranged Magical (5 role + 4 general)
BLM: 26 job, 35 total.

I would love to see a hard cap of 32 buttons needed for any job just for the human ergonomics. If you can't create meaningful jobs with 32 buttons, I don't know what they're doing. PvP manages to do it with under 12, and BLU hard-limits you to 24 job buttons.

Moreover, I think that what the jobs need is more uniqueness and less reliance on role-abilities and standards. That fact that all tanks get the same 9 abilities causes way more feeling of homogeneity than anything else.

And lastly, as an aside, I think the main argument against DOTs is that SE's implementation of them is broken. Higher Cast SPD should make them tick faster or do more damage or something, but they don't. I like DOTs, but the implementation needs work.

[Sjol]

It has nothing to do with being a "Melee Spokesperson"-- I am commenting on job homogeny in general and explaining the actual definition/application of homogeny. Removing positionals to produce a new set of melee that don't have positionals is exactly that. Maintaining positionals that exist across all melee is not homogeny. You can keep posting, you're still going to be using the term incorrectly.

And I also do not need to be a melee spokesperson to say that, if Viper has no positionals, you'll likely be looking at aDPS closer to MCH than RPR, i.e. a bigger disparity than what currently exists (not much of one) between the current melee classes.

Regarding BRD, the current state of its rDPS vs RPR makes complete sense and doesn't pose any contradiction. The aDPS of BRD is significantly lower.

I would also say that if it's true Xenosys mentioned this and is the source of this discontent, then he is unknowingly a job homogenist.

You made the argument that this is about homogeneity as opposed to consistency. I meant to respond earlier, but I still don't understand your distinction other than one has a good connotation and the other has a bad one.

That said, I do understand and feel for you in that you LIKE positionals and don't want to see them gone. Other people don't. Both are valid wants. People who don't like positionals have mentioned how they think they could be changed to be more likeable to them. You even agreed that feedback when you hit and miss them would be a nice addition.

I don't think there's an objective argument to liking or not liking positionals. It is just preference built on other forms of likes and dislikes. It sounds like you want more buttons while others want less. And, sadly, it's unlikely any set of changes will please everyone.

I do think there are some changes they could make to positionals that would make them more generally popular though:

1) Update the tooltips from:
"Delivers an attack with a potency of 300. 400 when execute from a target's rear." to:
"Delivers at attack of potency 300 (400 from target's rear)."

2) Add additional signals that you hit them (per many people's request).

3) Make it more intuitive if an attack is from behind or the flank. Right now, it's difficult to remember which attacks are flank and which are rear, especially if you change jobs a lot.

4) Reduce random boss turns. In a 2.5 second window, it feels bad to miss because you're on the wrong side of a boss turn.

5) Grant positional bonuses if you have threat or using some other mechanism when you're soloing.

[Mikey_R]

Tanks (9 role + 4 general)
PLD: 27 job, 40 total.

Just to ask, what are you counting as 'General' actions and do they need to be easily accessed at all times?

Higher Cast SPD should make them tick faster or do more damage or something, but they don't.

More Skill/Spell Speed does increase DoT potency (which means more damage).

I do think there are some changes they could make to positionals that would make them more generally popular though:

1) Update the tooltips from:
"Delivers an attack with a potency of 300. 400 when execute from a target's rear." to:
"Delivers at attack of potency 300 (400 from target's rear)."

2) Add additional signals that you hit them (per many people's request).

3) Make it more intuitive if an attack is from behind or the flank. Right now, it's difficult to remember which attacks are flank and which are rear, especially if you change jobs a lot.

4) Reduce random boss turns. In a 2.5 second window, it feels bad to miss because you're on the wrong side of a boss turn.

5) Grant positional bonuses if you have threat or using some other mechanism when you're soloing.

1. I don't see how that changes anything. Wording on a tooltip isn't going to change whether someone likes or dislikes positionals or not.

2. Agreed, one example that does pop in my head is Monk's old positional on Bootshine, which auto crit from the rear. Very clear indicator there. Of course, you cannot make everything auto crit just from a positional.

3. How would you go about this?

4. This is where fight knowledge comes into play and used to be a much bigger factor in how good a melee DPS was. True North solves most of those issues now though.

5. Sure, if it really matters that much. Pretty sure most don't care that much about solo though and most content that has some degree of difficulty already has omni directional enemies anyway.

[Sjol]

Just to ask, what are you counting as 'General' actions and do they need to be easily accessed at all times?

Sprint, Limit Break, Duty Action 1, Duty Action 2

They don't need to be accessed at all times, but they need to be frequently accessed and have space reserved on the bar since they are time sensitive. LB is one of the ones I don't have on my bar but would like it to be.

[ZiraZ]

There are reasons for a lot of these. Nuanced reasons, even that aren't really getting addressed.

Button bloat has to do with human ergonomics and the limits of what fits on a keyboard. MMO mice are not a solution for everyone. Nor are controllers. I have ready access to 16 buttons with a single modifier, leaving 32 for the keyboard, plus another 2+2 for the mouse, for a total of 36. Beyond that I'm hunting for the thing with a mouse. Thirty-six buttons ought to be enough for any job, but there are plenty that require more than that.

Here are some baseline numbers:

Tanks (9 role + 4 general)
PLD: 27 job, 40 total.

Melee DPS (6 role + 6 general)
NIN: 26 job, 36 total.

Ranged Magical (5 role + 4 general)
BLM: 26 job, 35 total.

I would love to see a hard cap of 32 buttons needed for any job just for the human ergonomics. If you can't create meaningful jobs with 32 buttons, I don't know what they're doing. PvP manages to do it with under 12, and BLU hard-limits you to 24 job buttons.

Moreover, I think that what the jobs need is more uniqueness and less reliance on role-abilities and standards. That fact that all tanks get the same 9 abilities causes way more feeling of homogeneity than anything else.

And lastly, as an aside, I think the main argument against DOTs is that SE's implementation of them is broken. Higher Cast SPD should make them tick faster or do more damage or something, but they don't. I like DOTs, but the implementation needs work.

PLD doesn't have 40 keys with roles, pretty sure you're counting extra on all other jobs too
PVP gets it done well with so few keys because it's a fast paced minigame against players, it plays like absolute garbage anytime you are hitting something relatively immobile that won't fight back or respond to your actions in a non-script manner, you simply get bored in less than 15 seconds, so if anything it proves to me that you absolutely need a significant amount of keys to get past a healthy threshold of complexity in a slow paced scripted PvE setting.

BLU hard limit is unique because it needs to add difficulty with choices, has nothing to do with ergonomics, you don't want 1 blue to bring everything into a fight, additionally 80% of a functional blu kit is cooldown based abilities and I would absolutely not call it a ergonomic posted boy, I personally love the blu burst but a ton of people hate it since it's so APM intense and tight, you could play 2 SMNs at the same time you do a blu opener,
While I do think 32 keys is the perfect spot I don't have any issues with PLD and I still got room for a few more keys before I'm strapped and I do not think we should hard cap any of the regular jobs, they seem to be doing a great job right now (except SMN) .
It's specially perfect for jobs like DRG that need a great amount of oGCDs, not a single one is bloat no matter how many people who don't have a clue about the job like to parrot.

[Arkdra]

I don't care about positionals either way. However, I have noticed that if I am doing a fight that doesn't require them, I do not miss having to do them. If I am doing something that does require them but I can't do them for whatever reason (soloing something out in the world, rude tank, whatever) then it infuriates me. So it would probably be net positive to remove them but I've been doing them so long now that I don't care if they don't.

[Turtledeluxe]

You made the argument that this is about homogeneity as opposed to consistency. I meant to respond earlier, but I still don't understand your distinction other than one has a good connotation and the other has a bad one.

That said, I do understand and feel for you in that you LIKE positionals and don't want to see them gone. Other people don't. Both are valid wants. People who don't like positionals have mentioned how they think they could be changed to be more likeable to them. You even agreed that feedback when you hit and miss them would be a nice addition.

I don't think there's an objective argument to liking or not liking positionals. It is just preference built on other forms of likes and dislikes. It sounds like you want more buttons while others want less. And, sadly, it's unlikely any set of changes will please everyone.

I do think there are some changes they could make to positionals that would make them more generally popular though:

1) Update the tooltips from:
"Delivers an attack with a potency of 300. 400 when execute from a target's rear." to:
"Delivers at attack of potency 300 (400 from target's rear)."

2) Add additional signals that you hit them (per many people's request).

3) Make it more intuitive if an attack is from behind or the flank. Right now, it's difficult to remember which attacks are flank and which are rear, especially if you change jobs a lot.

4) Reduce random boss turns. In a 2.5 second window, it feels bad to miss because you're on the wrong side of a boss turn.

5) Grant positional bonuses if you have threat or using some other mechanism when you're soloing.

These are all augmentations that I am not opposed to. Regarding homogeneity-- I am unsure if you aware that it is typically use to refer to the process of homogenization or uniform structures from a biological, chemical, etc perspective. FFXIV commonly throw around these terms to describe things that have similarity, which is technically ok, but misleading in this specific case. Melee, tanks, healers being designed with specific traits that define their roles may "feel homogeneous" in a casual sense, but are not a process of homogenization.

It's actually the act of selecting against positionals that leads to homogenization. Maybe not with the other melee, but all other jobs.