Positionals

[Lyth]

Making it so that specific jobs get positionals based on their class fantasy would be less homogeneity to me, not more. Right now all melee DPS get it. That's homogenous within the role.

This is a bit like saying that Magical DPS are homogeneous for them all having some degree of cast times on their spells. There comes a point where all jobs in a role category have to have some degree of common gameplay features, or else it ceases to be a category.

You don't necessarily need a lore justification for this. Does a painter have cast times when painting a picture? If so, why should Pictomancer have cast times? The reason is simple. If you take away the cast times, it ceases to belong within the role category. You've created a physical ranged job, but you've just mislabeled it as magical ranged.

Front positionals tend not to be a thing because then you have to design all your fights without cleaves, which makes tank gameplay less interesting (although a lot of fights opt for this role-based simplification). Samurai fought in wars, so I doubt they had a rule against refusing to kill an enemy soldier who had carelessly left their flank or rear unguarded in battle. Can you imagine how ineffective that would be in actual combat? You could just keep your back to them while attacking and they wouldn't be allowed to hit you.

With regards to your earlier comment, the reason why Physical Ranged don't have a role defining mechanic is because any time one is added, it gets phased out due to complaints. I think if you allow to happen on every role, all jobs will converge into that very design as an amorphous mess, and that's where the real homogenization lies.

Remove Shadow of death (or make it being refreshed by the end of a combo) and positionnals, and give me a more complexe rotation instead.

You do realize that any existing complexity in RPR's rotation is due to the existence of Death's Design, right? It's the entire basis of Double/Triple Enshroud.

[Isurith]

You do realize that any existing complexity in RPR's rotation is due to the existence of Death's Design, right? It's the entire basis of Double/Triple Enshroud.

I think I pretty much know how my main works after 3 tier & 1 ultimate on it. EDIT : Not to say that triple shroud is like... incredibly niche and isn't a practical rotation.
That doesn't mean I like the pseudo-dot condition. If AT LEAST SoD gave 10 red gauge it would already feel better. But as it is now, it's just bland.

To be fair, whole reaper is on the bland side. I like it very much for the job fantasy and visuals, but gameplay-wise it could've been far better.

But we are getting out of topic.

[VeolE]

Hello everyone, since the launch of EW in particular I've been finding boss design is heavily unfavorable to melee in general and especially for positionals. The Alliance raids are the number one culprit for this and it gets so frustrating I just stop caring. Either get rid of positionals or change boss design to accommodate it better. Positionals feel outdated and pointless as they typically only give a small potency increase and with the huge hit boxes and constant turning of current boss design it's more of a hassle then anything.

[Turtledeluxe]

Making it so that specific jobs get positionals based on their class fantasy would be less homogeneity to me, not more. Right now all melee DPS get it. That's homogenous within the role.

There's a difference between consistency and homogeneity. Player feedback (particularly that which subversively shapes jobs into similarly feeling gameplay) and the desire to delete systems from the game are what make this a case of homogeneity. Now, I'm not against augmenting it. I just think if people are talking about reducing buttons, making gameplay more streamlined, etc. that all just sounds like said parse driven feedback to me.

There's just no functional argument for divorcing positionals from melee imo, disregarding evolving combat design. Inherently for melee oriented combat, position actually does matter which is why I'm simply saying that removing it altogether seems nonsensical. Moreover, having it on one class but not others creates a gameplay disadvantage in the melee subclass. If there was a pure spam melee class, it would have be nerfed into the ground most likely.

I see no contradiction. It doesn't require any skill, but it just sometimes a mild annoyance when boss decide to reposition itself out of the blue because tank pulled it 1 pixel too much to the north. That doesn't change my previous fact.

And by no mean I'm aiming for homogeny/getting better parses with no effort. I already said in a previous post that yes, melee (and jobs as a whole) are getting easier everytime. That's not a positive to me (tho it can be argued but that's another debate).

But defending positionnals as a something that add difficulty is ridiculous to me. It's nothing more than a checkbox every once in a while. And just not a fun one.

I'm not willing to die on a hill against them because I don't mind in the grand scheme of things. But defending it seems very silly to me.

Bosses moving around is not "an annoyance", it's gameplay. So on the one hand you are arguing it requires no thought or skill, on the other hand you're acknowleding that your problem with it is that it requires some effort when it's not convenient for you. I don't think that makes any sense, personally. And I would not think it is motivated by parses if you did not plainly lay it out in your first post.

[Isurith]

Boss repositionning themselves between almost each mechanics in savage is an annoyance and you won't change my mind on that shit.

[SDaemon]

If SE wants to keep positionals then positionals needs to be worth performing and be better designed into the kit, instead of just tacked onto the melee role, in a combat system that has been increasingly designed to disparage positionals. At present, I'd prefer SE throw away the tattered remains of positionals and work more on making intricate and complex rotations.

[Avidria]

This is a bit like saying that Magical DPS are homogeneous for them all having some degree of cast times on their spells. There comes a point where all jobs in a role category have to have some degree of common gameplay features, or else it ceases to be a category.

I mean I kind of feel like the biggest common gameplay feature of melee is the requirement that they be in melee range to do nearly all of their damage.

[ZiraZ]

If SE wants to keep positionals then positionals needs to be worth performing and be better designed into the kit, instead of just tacked onto the melee role, in a combat system that has been increasingly designed to disparage positionals. At present, I'd prefer SE throw away the tattered remains of positionals and work more on making intricate and complex rotations.

Problem is they are not gonna work on anything, all they do recently is remove and I don't want them to remove positional just to be given an IOU a mechanic or complex rotations 3 expansions later pinky promise from YP.
If they're gonna remove my positionals then I also want them to hand me that new complex rotation or new mechanic in the same patch, and with plenty of info ahead of time for feedback.
So right now I would rather play it safe and just keep my fun positionals.

[Isurith]

Problem is they are not gonna work on anything, all they do recently is remove and I don't want them to remove positional just to be given an IOU mechanic or complex rotations 3 expansions later pinky promise from YP.
If they're gonna remove my positionals then I also want them to hand me that new complex rotation or new mechanic in the same patch, and with plenty of info ahead of time for feedback.
So right now I would rather play it safe and just keep my fun positionals.

That's sadly the only decent argument for keeping them in my eyes, ahah. I'd really like for them to disappear but that would alienate a lot of people and yeah, we clearly can't be sure that we will gain something, or something better, in return.

[Sjol]

This is a bit like saying that Magical DPS are homogeneous for them all having some degree of cast times on their spells. There comes a point where all jobs in a role category have to have some degree of common gameplay features, or else it ceases to be a category.

...snip...

The fact that they all have cast times is part of the homogeneity, but they have other things that differentiate them.

BLM ignores normal mana rules and has a heavy penalty for interruption.
RDM has their 1,2,3 combo, a balance bar as well as their dual-cast mechanic.
SMN ditches casting times and could definitely use some more differentiation.
PIC is TBD

Positionals all being the same feels homogenous. I think that's why some people are not arguing for their wholesale removal, but to apply them intentionally to specific jobs.

Front positionals tend not to be a thing because then you have to design all your fights without cleaves, which makes tank gameplay less interesting ...snip... Samurai fought in wars, so I doubt they had a rule against refusing to kill an enemy soldier who had carelessly left their flank unguarded in battle ...snip...

With regards to SAM, the class fantasy and the reality of war are at cross-purposes, but in modern times in the West, samurai are entrusted with a certain amount of honor and attacking from behind would be counter to that. It could be very different from a Japanese viewpoint, but that's an area where I'm not really versed.

Front positionals could be a thing if you also got protection while in the front. I'm not the biggest fan of this idea, but I do recognize the design possibilities.

With regards to your earlier comment, the reason why Physical Ranged don't have a role defining mechanic is because any time one is added, it gets phased out due to complaints. I think if you allow to happen on every role, all jobs will converge into that very design as an amorphous mess, and that's where the real homogenization lies.

I think the only things that need to be true for Ranged Phys role is that most abilities have non-melee range and that they do physical damage because those two things are in the name. Everything else has been de facto true but is subject to change.

RPhys tend to distinguish themselves via other means, though I do think it's in bad shape when it comes to combat differentiation.

BRD is heavily proc-based and a ton of oGCDs, sometimes an annoying amount if you have bad ping
MCH has overheat GCD, oGCD pairing thing and is probably the least distinct
DNC has the dance matching mini-game and is probably the most distinct