Cooldown overflow vs cooldown charges.

[rawker]

snip

i understand where you're coming from when you initially made this thread. The idea of introcuding coyote time to cooldowns is great, I cannot deny, but the way coyote time and to some extent input buffering(the game already has this one) work is to allow a very brief amount of time, up to 3 frames for platformers, IIRC, to give a window where a certain action which is supposedly no longer valid to be possible. that, in itself, is still subject to optimization.

Applying the same concept to FFXIV where certain abilities will have some of its cooldown to overflow towards the next will tend to rely on it, which why I said it will be too forgiving. I mean, we survived before when it wasn't there. We became more attentive and aware of our cooldowns to prevent excessive drfiting. I don't see any long-term benefit of introducing this to the game when it is already close to brain-dead rotations to majority of its jobs. When all I see nowadays are players want consolidating combos into single buttons... healers having 1 filler and 1 dot for ~90% of the fights. When a tank is overflowing with self-sustain and still not content with it. Gutting a job off its identity because "we want blinding effects" instead of tackling the issues, head on. Adding more simplification will only lead to another making the game too forgiving and will actually hurt the game

[OliviaLugria]

I think the biggest failure of the system is that the skills that use it were chosen poorly. It shines much more when on utility skills. Some examples being triple cast, Thunder clap, and an advant.

I think the way they work in the mch kit is mostly alright to, even if the animations are all over the place. You're never really overcapping or waiting for burst.

Skills like spinshatter and shadow bringer don't really need the 2nd charge., and I personally think it hurts the jobs these skills are attached to.

[Supersnow845]

I think the biggest failure of the system is that the skills that use it were chosen poorly. It shines much more when on utility skills. Some examples being triple cast, Thunder clap, and an advant.

I think the way they work in the mch kit is mostly alright to, even if the animations are all over the place. You're never really overcapping or waiting for burst.

Skills like spinshatter and shadow bringer don't really need the 2nd charge., and I personally think it hurts the jobs these skills are attached to.

That’s what I said as well

Charges work best on skills that augment other skills (such as thin air) or utility skills (like thunderclap)

Something like shadowbringer there is legit no difference between “2 charges of 600 potency and 1 charge of 1200 potency” outside of crit variance but honestly they should just have made it a single charge and distributed the other potency elsewhere. As for something like phlegma with a non 60 second CD there is never really a time when you don’t hold 2 charges so you may as well change it to something like “60 second CD every second use has double potency” for all the changes it’ll actually make to SGE’s gameplay

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]But if your main aim is to make jobs less punishing while also increasing the skill ceiling, I'd say make 60s buttons into 40s buttons. If someone doesn't drift, they get one extra cast in between burst windows, but if they're prone to drifting, they still get it for burst windows (assuming again that they don't play really badly).

I kinda like 40s timers because you get at least 1 charge to be used anywhere else that's not 2m reopener. We can see on today's Phlegma where 1 out of 3 charges in 2 minutes becomes a mobility/uptime resource.

But then again, that's a very minimum low bar lol.

[Aravell]

I kinda like 40s timers because you get at least 1 charge to be used anywhere else that's not 2m reopener. We can see on today's Phlegma where 1 out of 3 charges in 2 minutes becomes a mobility/uptime resource.

But then again, that's a very minimum low bar lol.

Minute Phlegma optimisation is still more than SCH has, which is nothing.

I wouldn't even call whatever we're doing with Energy Drain as "optimisation" anymore, considering that you don't ever need to use anything other than Energy Drain unless you're progging or your cohealer is really bad.

[Valence]

But if your main aim is to make jobs less punishing while also increasing the skill ceiling, I'd say make 60s buttons into 40s buttons. If someone doesn't drift, they get one extra cast in between burst windows, but if they're prone to drifting, they still get it for burst windows (assuming again that they don't play really badly).

Please no, Air Anchor shenanigans is not exactly the idea I have of fun optimization... Those on cooldown long recast GCDs are kinda cancer ngl: one of the newfangled terrible toys they brought with BLU and ShB. I'd rather have things tied to resources with low recasts with an inclination on player's agency when to use them and why...

[ShadowNyx3]

Just kill the 2 minute meta. Problem solved.

I think the biggest failure of the system is that the skills that use it were chosen poorly. It shines much more when on utility skills. Some examples being triple cast, Thunder clap, and an advant.

I think the way they work in the mch kit is mostly alright to, even if the animations are all over the place. You're never really overcapping or waiting for burst.

Skills like spinshatter and shadow bringer don't really need the 2nd charge., and I personally think it hurts the jobs these skills are attached to.

This is very true though. Maybe the 2 minute meta would not feel as bad if all jobs didn't have to deal with poorly chosen charge skills.

[Rithy255]

Charge system for ogcd attacks? - I generally dislike this, theirs some examples where its fine, but usually this leads to just being saved for burst windows, this could be better if 2 minutes wasn't so dominate of a system.

Charge system for utility skills? - Such as oblation, aurora, Holy sheltron (gauge is a flash charge system), Non attacking gap closers, I generally like as it's actually where flexibility can be nice and important.

[ty_taurus]

Something else that's worth mention in regards to charges is that, charges on actions with long cooldowns suffer more from the store-and-dump mentality. Take Sage's Phlegma, for example. A 40 second cooldown means you only actually get one instance of Phlegma between each burst window, because two of the three charges you'll generate between each burst window are to be saved for the next. One of the things I keep pitching for Sage is reducing the cooldown of Phlegma from 40 seconds to 20 seconds, and that actually can do a lot of good for the store-and-dump situation as well, because between one burst and the next, you'll generate six Phelgmas instead of three, and now suddenly you go from Phlegma being almost exclusively a burst window button to now something you're using more often than you do during that burst, because you now have four Phlegmas that you can use instead of only one, and I personally think that also makes the store-and-dump mentality feel better as well.

[Aravell]

Something else that's worth mention in regards to charges is that, charges on actions with long cooldowns suffer more from the store-and-dump mentality. Take Sage's Phlegma, for example. A 40 second cooldown means you only actually get one instance of Phlegma between each burst window, because two of the three charges you'll generate between each burst window are to be saved for the next. One of the things I keep pitching for Sage is reducing the cooldown of Phlegma from 40 seconds to 20 seconds, and that actually can do a lot of good for the store-and-dump situation as well, because between one burst and the next, you'll generate six Phelgmas instead of three, and now suddenly you go from Phlegma being almost exclusively a burst window button to now something you're using more often than you do during that burst, because you now have four Phlegmas that you can use instead of only one, and I personally think that also makes the store-and-dump mentality feel better as well.

That would also solve the issue of potency bloat.

If we reduce the CD and potency on these big burst window abilities, we'd actually have a better combat system. We'd have a more active gameplay during the cooldown period between bursts and the reduced potency from being able to use those abilities more means that damage swings from crit variance and buff stacking would be smaller as a result.