Feelings on FF14's Trinity System?

[LilimoLimomo]

Throughout much of my life, even in games that used the classic RPG Trinity System (healers, tanks, dps), there was no hard requirement that players obey the Trinity by having a "balanced" party. Rather than the game explicitly forcing players to have a tank, a healer, and a few DPS, it would let you play with whatever combo you wanted. And then through experience and iteration, players would generally learn that having a "balanced" party helped them succeed, and so it became standard practice not because it was forced, but because it was demonstrably effective.

As games became more mainstream and tried to pull in more casual crowds, some developers stopped giving players enough rope to hang themselves; if playing with 5 dps is going to result in most players having a bad time, then why even let them make choices that set them up for failure? So forcing a "balanced" party became a fairly normal practice, in an effort to basically put guard rails around the game experience.

I'm wondering if in FF14 we've stepped into a different territory, where "balanced" parties are still forced, but not because they actually meaningfully benefit the player; in fact, it seems like in most content, having a "balanced" party actually makes combat more difficult that in would otherwise be.

But that's just my experience, so I'm curious to hear what yours is. If you weren't forced to have a "balanced" party, would you still do it because you think that's more effective? Or would you find another party structure more optimal? Feel free to specify if you feel it's different for different types of content (especially Ultimates which I have no experience with).

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with me so that I can better form my own!

[Aelin_Ashryver]

If we were not forced to have a balanced party that ensured we had a reasonable split of roles we might end up like GW2 party composition and as much as I love that game it's terrible. The only combat encounters where composition is important forces HARD stacking of the same classes and specs. There is no variety and they nerf classes dps to a point where not having those few specific party make ups means you will never clear. Melee dps are totally screwed in their latest challenge mode for example. The same class and spec, virtuoso, has been dominating for so long it's insanely bland.

The way ff enforces a varied group comp works well and I don't want the terrible system GW2 has. Their raid content is dead for a variety of reasons but I would argue that having 95% of specs be unusable in high end content is one of them.

[Striker44]

Aren't you already not forced to have a balanced party? You only need to have certain members for each role if you're queuing thru DF. If you use PF, you can already make whatever composition you want...

(I remember in ShB running the Tower raid with 24 healers - that was hilarious.)

[Boa-Noah]

I mean... realistically, if you wanted to strip away the trinity there'd be no point to playing DPS at all, some tank classes have good enough if not better DPS abilities with way stronger survivability, not to mention I think Berserker is pretty much the go-to solo job anyways. Stripping away the trinity system renders a lot of classes useless and I'm not really sure that's the kind of game I want to play, I'd rather we keep the limitations so everyone has a chance to play whatever they want instead of 'just play a tank, it's meta'.

Besides we can already do content without the trinity anyways thanks to party finder so no real reason to remove it from the game regardless.

[ASkellington]

I'm wondering if in FF14 we've stepped into a different territory, where "balanced" parties are still forced, but not because they actually meaningfully benefit the player; in fact, it seems like in most content, having a "balanced" party actually makes combat more difficult that in would otherwise be.

But that's just my experience, so I'm curious to hear what yours is. If you weren't forced to have a "balanced" party, would you still do it because you think that's more effective? Or would you find another party structure more optimal? Feel free to specify if you feel it's different for different types of content (especially Ultimates which I have no experience with).

Games like this already exist. Look no further than GW2 and a more direct comparison ESO.

ESO has a light trinity system. All of the classes can be every role - Tank/Healer/DPS with DPS being split into "three": magicka, staminia, and hybrid.

Both games have their own problems with this.

GW2 doesn't exactly NEED healers and for the most part you aren't exactly encouraged to bring them. Are they welcomed? Yes. Are there mechanics for them? Also yes. Are they hard required? No, because the rest of the specs (broken up by the weapons you use) can bring enough self healing to cover it. They have instead buff bots that can also side heal and get by.

The problem here is that anyone looking for a dedicated healer role is going to be a bit disappointed.

ESO is about the same but potentially more egregious. All classes have a healer spec yes, but you don't need one. Really all you need as a Restoration staff to cover any extreme end of healing. On the average a magicka DPS player can slot 2-3 heals on their dps bars and heal just as fine, as healing in ESO scales off of the same stat - magicka. Stamina dps players, tanks, hybrids and even magicka dps players can slot one skill (Vigor iirc) and also cover most damage.

The only thing that's stopping healers from being irrelevant is the Dungeon finder requires one. Except by the nature of ESO, you can change your role. So if you want to queue with randoms with a DPS set up as either Tank/Healer, you are more than able to (even if there is some backlash). And a good player (with a decent group) can even do what we would call Criterion Savage dungeons with a set up so long as they wear the right gear.

Even Veteran Raids aren't exactly excluded as some times you can drop a healer (aka make the healer into a buffer with off healing to provide higher dps).

Point is, in all of this I suppose, I've played games like this and as a Healer main, I don't enjoy my role being eroded. I don't like that FFXIV seems to be a crappy trinity MMO and I want it to go back into being a proper one where Healers/Tanks actually matter and we can have things like support dps for those who want to do less damage at the cost of being an integral part of the party.

In fact, I would go so far as to say being forced into having balanced parties (via DF) keeps my favored game play alive otherwise if it didn't exist I'd be "forced" out of it and into gameplay I hate.

[Mecia]

Low incoming damage, bloated healing kits and high tank sustain. The trinity is barely hanging on in XIV when its possible to replace a healer with DPS in most content.

Look forward to upgraded 30% mits on tanks further exacerbating the issue.

[Jeeqbit]

I'd enjoy if fights were just like Rathalos.

As for if the trinity system currently matters, let's just say that years ago (might have been in Stormblood or earlier), I joined some all-DPS runs of many FFXIV dungeons. Some of them were very challenging, but the increased DPS meant that the bosses could be killed before all of us died. Potions also allowed us to survive things. The higher level, the easier they got as well. There was one that was really too much and that was the Wanderer's Palace one that applies Doom and demands a lot of self-healing. But who knows, maybe now with Second Wind + Bloodbath + potions you could get through that as well.

I remember returning to SWTOR briefly and they don't care about the trinity either, because it makes queue times too long.

[ty_taurus]

[Gemina]

I've always understood the trinity system as multiple roles coming together to create a collective unit in order to accomplish what they otherwise could not. I have always liked the concept as I find it fascinating when several things have to work together in a collaborative manner in order to function or guarantee success. The system is present in FFXIV, but far from prevalent. Granted, a lot of the overlap is necessary for the sake of not limiting a player's rate of progression. However, there is a certain level of encroachment going on where some jobs have greatly overstepped their bounds. If any role in the trinity is in a situation where they really are not needed, there is a major flaw in the game's design and there are more than a handful of these situations in FFXIV. This dev team can definitely do much, much better.

I got a huge kick out of this :P

[Jojoya]

We are not forced to use the standard role restrictions if we make our parties in advance. The role restrictions are only going to apply when you queue through Duty Finder for random matchmaking.

You'll see the message I've outlined in red at the bottom of almost every duty description.



If we are using random matchmaking, then the game requires the role restrictions to give the party the best chances of success when the skill level of the party members is unknown.

But if you're only running with friends or other players you know and want to use a different party composition, go for it.