Idea: Merge PLD Sword and Shield into a Single Item

[AmiableApkallu]

Trying stuff out is good, but we're also at the point where we're 10 years in and some clean-up may be warranted and helpful towards expanding what's capable. Removing code and systems is important for making space for new stuff (and I'm talking as a software engineer here). You can't grow complexity infinitely.

As a software engineer, then, you should be very aware of the perils and sheer arrogance in trying to backseat drive someone else's codebase without any inside knowledge.

As a software engineer, I don't need my users and customers to tell me how to manage my own, well-aged codebase. I'm already well aware of all its imperfections and things that could be better. But my time and resources are not infinite, or else I would have already fixed and tidied up everything.

What I do need my users and customers to tell me is what they'd like to be able to do.

[Sjol]

As a software engineer, then, you should be very aware of the perils and sheer arrogance in trying to backseat drive someone else's codebase without any inside knowledge.

As a software engineer, I don't need my users and customers to tell me how to manage my own, well-aged codebase. I'm already well aware of all its imperfections and things that could be better. But my time and resources are not infinite, or else I would have already fixed and tidied up everything.

What I do need my users and customers to tell me is what they'd like to be able to do.

I want to not have to deal with the additional mental model/hassle of separate sword and shield. I don't want all the weird exceptions to how items work in the game in this one place. I ask this both as a customer and as someone who understands the costs of such things.

While I don't have any inside knowledge, it's also not strictly required to form a hypothesis on how things work. It's also my experience that developers want to clean things up but aren't given the opportunity because customers don't ask for things to be cleaned up and product management then doesn't prioritize it.

If I were a developer on FFXIV, I would love to be told that cleaning up older systems was a priority because customers asked for it.

[AmiableApkallu]

While I don't have any inside knowledge, it's also not strictly required to form a hypothesis on how things work. It's also my experience that developers want to clean things up but aren't given the opportunity because customers don't ask for things to be cleaned up and product management then doesn't prioritize it.

Yes. And that's as it should be. It's not the job of customer to ask a developer to clean their code up. It's the developer's job to deal with their code in whatever fashion they deem most efficient in delivering a product now and in the future.

So, pray tell, how do you propose to deal with low(er)-level casters that want a rod/stick in one hand a shield in the other?

[GTK0HLK]

In ARR the sword and shield relics seem to be able to have different light levels. You have to turn them in separately. Clunky doesn't mean unusable, just that there's friction. I mentioned several areas where they've had to make adjustments because they're two items. The designers really seem to want to treat them as a unit rather than as separate items, but it seems like the legacy code/design has left them stuck with work arounds.

A shield is an offhand, but for some reason not in the "off arm" section of the market. The shield is the only main/off arm that's not with the rest. That's clunky. It's also the only job with two arms post-ARR meaning you still have to pay for an extra item -- the PLD tax.

Stats are also split between the sword and shield, needlessly. You could get the exact same effect by putting all the stats on the sword and making the shield literally cosmetic, which is where this idea spawned.

Also, shields are listed under the Weapons tab of the Armor dialog [e.g., Allagan Tomestones of Comedy (Dow) => Weapons tab]. Also, clunky.

Yet are they priced the exact same as all other tome items(?), except you pay twice(?). Once for the Sword, once for the shield, ending with double the cost and Needing the same amount of Special Tomestone(from raids).(?)

Aren't Said Weaponry now a days sold as a coffered unit on the market board.(?)


I don't get what conception there is with this paladin tax?

First I ever hear of it(Then again, I ain't specifically looking for it, if it exist. But I guess I heard it now, regardless if it's Accurate or not. From you)

[Sjol]

Yet are they priced the exact same as all other tome items(?), except you pay twice(?). Once for the Sword, once for the shield, ending with double the cost and Needing the same amount of Special Tomestone(from raids).(?)

Aren't Said Weaponry now a days sold as a coffered unit on the market board.(?)


I don't get what conception there is with this paladin tax?

First I ever hear of it(Then again, I ain't specifically looking for it, if it exist. But I guess I heard it now, regardless if it's Accurate or not. From you)

It was more a problem before with loot drops since you could get the sword, but not the shield and vice-versa. Though, they are still separate crafted items and are listed separately on the marketboard and different amounts of supply. E.g, on my server is the Diadochos PLD sword is 70k which is line with 70-100k for most of the weapons, but the shield is another 60k on top of that, making the PLD with its sword+shield combination the most expensive of the jobs by about 30%. That's where I come up with the concept of the PLD tax. That's been a fairly consistent experience for me.

That said, my original point didn't really include the "tax" as a critical point because I don't think it is. To me, the issue is a matter of having this weird one-off that requires a lot of weird little one-off things in the various bits of UI. Shields are classified as both armor and weapon. They appear in the weapon area when upgrading, but the weapon tab of the armor area in another. At this point I'm simply re-iterating my previous points and if those aren't compelling, it's fine to just say, "yeah, it never bothered me".

[Iscah]

It's also the only job with two arms post-ARR meaning you still have to pay for an extra item -- the PLD tax.

Yet are they priced the exact same as all other tome items(?), except you pay twice(?). Once for the Sword, once for the shield, ending with double the cost and Needing the same amount of Special Tomestone(from raids).(?)

[...] they are still separate crafted items and are listed separately on the marketboard and different amounts of supply. E.g, on my server is the Diadochos PLD sword is 70k which is line with 70-100k for most of the weapons, but the shield is another 60k on top of that, making the PLD with its sword+shield combination the most expensive of the jobs by about 30%. That's where I come up with the concept of the PLD tax. That's been a fairly consistent experience for me.

The "tax" you're describing is completely player-invented for crafted item sales and does not exist for items where the game devs set the price. There is no "double the cost"; the same cost is split across the two. If anything, for glamour purposes later on, it's a discount if you only want one of the things and not both.

For examples at current endgame:

• Current tome weapons cost 500+tome, but the sword costs 350+tome and the shield is 150 with no tomestone required -- I assume this is why it gets grouped with the armour and not the "weapon exchange" tab as a holdover from previous iterations where one was a purchase and the other was bartering.

• Trial weapons normally cost 10 totems but the sword costs 7 and the shield costs 3.

• At the "augment your crafted gear" stall a weapon normally is worth 5 tokens, but the sword is 3 and shield is 2.

• Level 80 weapons from the vendor in Sharlayan cost 45,417 gil but the sword is 30,278 and the shield is 15,139.

[Yshnal]

Glamours aside, different sets of the same ilvl often have a different substat distribution. Now imagine that a player wants to mix and match the sword and shield of two sets to minmax. With the proposed change they wouldn't be able to do so.

In other words, in exchange for freeing some armoury slots that are barely used (and thus needing no freeing) and a tiny bit of convenience we would lose customization. I don't think that it's worth it.

[Sjol]

Glamours aside, different sets of the same ilvl often have a different substat distribution. Now imagine that a player wants to mix and match the sword and shield of two sets to minmax. With the proposed change they wouldn't be able to do so.

In other words, in exchange for freeing some armoury slots that are barely used (and thus needing no freeing) and a tiny bit of convenience we would lose customization. I don't think that it's worth it.

You're correct in that you wouldn't be able to swap shields, but since you're usually looking for the the item that has the two stats you want and not the three you don't, the sword that has than would be matched to the shield that had them based on how SE applies attributes.

There could still be a situation where BiS has mixed sword and shield. I haven't seen it, but I can't rule it out.

And your comment about what you value is absolutely fair. You value that ability to customize over other factors. We value different things, which I think is okay

[Sjol]

The "tax" you're describing is completely player-invented for crafted item sales and does not exist for items where the game devs set the price. There is no "double the cost"; the same cost is split across the two. If anything, for glamour purposes later on, it's a discount if you only want one of the things and not both.

For examples at current endgame:
...snip accurate list of in-game examples...

I never meant to imply it wasn't player-made as SE clearly wants them to be the same price. With players, I do think it's a side effect of them being separate items that causes the player-made tax I was describing, but I also don't think it's the strongest argument for what I'm proposing which is why I left it out of my original post.

[Iscah]

I don't think Key items even need that much of space, given there's only so many quests you can take at some point. Even with non-quest key items, I don't think it's even possible to fill that much.

It's entirely possible to fill that much. Unlikely to happen unless you're actively trying to do so, but possible nonetheless.

Quests generally can have up to three unique key items each. 3 x 30 active quests permitted and you've already filled two-and-a-half of the three pages.

On top of that, there are a decent number of key items that aren't linked to active quests, like the Wondrous Tails book, old aether compass, assorted items for the older relic quests and the growing pile of hunt bills.

If you've got any space left, some gathering levequests generate two types of items that are stored in the key items pouch until you return to the levemete to hand them in.

Dungeons may also place items -- most likely literal keys -- into the key items. By the end of Haukke Manor you can be carrying the three unique progress keys and a fourth slot for any leftover small keys.

So, altogether I think with some deliberate scheming and the right assortment of sidequests you could easily hit at least 70+ key items (making the third page necessary) or even fill all three pages.