I got a question! (PLD)

[Vatom]

Honestly Cover and Shield bash are both less useful I'd get rid of both way before clemency.

Clemency is
1. A good emergency tool that is actually consistent unlike cover.
2. Good Solo tool, blah blah "omg shield bash is like useful at stunning a mob"
3. A good progression tool, if you're learning a fight it's actually one of the best consistent skills at seeing fights longer and learning more.

Ideally clemency would be a OGCD MP tied ability leaving it so that if you spam it, by proxy you still lose damage because you have magic tied to damage, but good useage of it will lead to no such loss, maybe just remove healing on spell attacks though if this was ever a thing.

Honestly I love cover again fits the aesthetic of the job. I just wish the ones that would fit the other tanks had that more grounded (I hope that is understandable I’m bad with words today)

[Vatom]

I respect your devotion to the topic, it's good to see people like you on here.

To answer it, no. We don't need an equivalent to Clemency. That's just going to homogenize the tanks further and take away that niche Paladin has in its kit. I don't want a clemency equivalent on the other tanks because they really don't need it. I play Paladin, but I don't main it, and I don't wish to get it shoved into my kit because "well this one has it, the others should too". I'm very against that sort of design. It's the Paladin's cake, I don't want them to be forced to give me a slice of it.

Thank you but if we were all like that. Homogenized jobs wouldn’t exist
Or at least if we had spoken sooner.

If I was bitter I would say they already took some of yours why not share but that isn’t what my aim is here.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Infuriate is Blood Weapon's equivalent, not Equilibrium. DRK doesn't really have an on-demand healing option. I would split resource generation and on-demand healing up because they're very different functions. If you're including resource generation on an otherwise defensive list, it probably makes sense to list gap closers (including Primal Rend) and include Shield Bash as well.

I think Clemency is a good choice aesthetically and illustrates how every instance of self-sustain does not have to be lifesteal. It just needs some situations in which it can be made damage neutral. PLD has historically had a few extra actions as a result of Stormblood, as it gained Total Eclipse as an extra action to offset Flash and had fewer action losses from the role action system.

I specificially chose Bloodweapon as the equivalent here albeit forced due to the MP -> more safe/frequent usage of TBN interaction without hampering the use of Edge/Flood or having to wait about 4-5 combos + natural MP regen to do the rest. It is a reach, but in this sense it directly supports more TBN use.

That said, it is a multi-track equivalent, as you mentioned it also is basically Infuriate with extra steps, but unlike Blood Weapon, Infuriate has very limited impact on the actual mitigation/recovery. At most I distantly recall forced critical heals for one GCD under BW/NF, but that's hardly +200-240 heal potency at around +50-60% critical damage modifier.

This is why I count BW but not Infuriate. And by proxy most certainly not Primal Rend (we could make an argument about Inner Release KB/CC prevention), not Shield Bash (I assume you mention this due to stuns) and not dashes (they don't generate anything and have no defensive properties, what?).

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

But sir the equivalent was just part of the question. If I might annoy you a bit. Do that it should be removed or that other tanks should have something with it (for a lack of words) potential? Also a personal question, I do apologize this seems off topic but it does affect my outlook. What about PLD pass block?

I am sure many have given their take before me, but I'll oblige.

I think Clemency should stay. We have reached a good point in Paladin's damage flow that you can comfortably fit in Clemency at the cost of one damage GCD without misaligning your whole damage window under Fight or Flight, as well as most GCD actions no longer breaking combos (spells + ranged attacks).

Clemency does not make Paladin an automatically better tank than the other three, but it lets them do things others possibly cannot and I think it is good that way. It costs damage over the course of a time-limited fight, so it is fine. The other tanks have other things they can utilize that PLD can't as well.

• WAR has the most amount of dashes that can be stocked up for specific purposes (3x Onslaught + Primal Rend)
• DRK can dish out three 1-target mitigations to diff. allies (2x Oblation, 1x TBN) and has the shortest CDs, especially vs magic
• GNB arguably is the most flat here. They have a "2nd Rampart" in Camouflage and can grant regens independent of mitigation

Personally I think it would be cooler if tanks had more unique things going for them... other than Warrior's Holmgang possibly negating the need to have two tanks for multiple mechanics per fight. Thank you 240s CD /s.

As for Pass Block, I assume you mean Passage of Arms having 100% block rate. Honestly completely fine to have, for self-mitigation you will almost never use it, but when you do there is a fun property about blocking that makes it better than normal mitigation.

Whenever you take damage, the calculation checks various effects going off and checks the results after the math as well. Based on what I experienced so far, this means the following:

• True invulns (Hallowed Ground, Superbolide) get checked super early, which is why we feel cheated despite having used them "early".
• Standard mitigation (Rampart, for example) gets checked after, making it faster than true invulns
• Mechanical mitigation (Block, Parry) or mechanics preventing it (Critical Hit taken) get checked after this, which is why you can press Bulwark / Passage quite late and it still will count the Block.
  
  EDIT/NOTE: As far as I recall from Abyssos raids, this type of mitigation does NOT reduce damage taken from DOTs applied (poisons, etc)
• Survival invulns (Holmgang, Living Dead) are checked after damage is calculated to interfere with setting a death flag on the player. This is why you can use them EXTREMELY late and it still counts.

All in all, Clemency + Passage are fine. I'd personally prefer more unique things about the other tanks rather than homogenization juice leaking out of all pipes.

[Lyth]

I think that people worry too much about homogenization without really understanding it. When you are able to create a comparison chart and identify equivalents, that's partial homogenization, which is where problems arise. The classical example is Vengeance, which is identical to all other 30% mitigation tools but has an additional thorns effect. That's bad design, because everyone can see that there's a best option. Removing the thorns effect and making all 30% mitigation tools have identical effects is an improvement. That's complete homogenization. If you want jobs to have unique flavor, then you add a unique 'counter' effect on each 30% defensive, like perhaps a Blood Price effect on Shadow Wall, an Expiacion reset chance on Sentinel, and a cartridge proc chance on Nebula. If you balance these effects around potency, there's no clear winner.

Prior to the 6.3 Bulwark addition, you probably would argue that PoA was the equivalent 'extra mitigation' action on PLD, because you could use it as a bonus Rampart if you really wanted to. My suspicion is that this possible upcoming Vengeance upgrade will start to replace the 30% tier with combined raidwide/personal mitigation tools, similar to PoA.

As far as Blood Weapon being treated as an 'indirect' heal, I really don't buy that. The limiting factor with TBN is incoming damage. You don't need extra resources to use it because it is damage neutral. It just replaces an Edge/Flood, which you then get reimbursed for. It's also not self-sustain/healing because it doesn't increase your HP total over time. So under attrition conditions, you will eventually still die from accumulated damage, unless you can successfully negate all sources of incoming damage. These sorts of false comparisons are the reason why DRK tends to be left at a net disadvantage. If it doesn't raise your HP value, it's not a heal.

The reason why I mentioned gap closers is because I thought your chart was about utility. Right now WAR has two gap closers and everyone else has one. I've always felt that there was a potential niche for Cover to let you gap close to an ally and absorb an attack (rather than a channeled effect) that would keep it more consistently relevant in fights.

[GoatOfWar]

Why do PLD still have clemency? I mean is there an equivalent to that with other tanks and if not why do they still have this button. Also can be said for shield bash but I’ll leave the focus to the former.

Once upon a time, there was a thing called trade offs. The collective Warrior playerbase killed it.
Because one tank being better at one thing and worse at something else wasn't acceptable.
Clemency is a leftover of that design philosophy - trading damage for healing. It's one of the last well designed tank abilities.

[rawker]

and to think that Clemency's potency got nerfed

[Vatom]

[QUOTE=Lyth;6454232]I think that people worry too much about homogenization without really understanding it. When you are able to create a comparison chart and identify equivalents, that's partial homogenization, which is where problems arise. The classical example is Vengeance, which is identical to all other 30% mitigation tools but has an additional thorns effect. That's bad design, because everyone can see that there's a best option. Removing the thorns effect and making all 30% mitigation tools have identical effects is an improvement. That's complete homogenization. If you want jobs to have unique flavor, then you add a unique 'counter' effect on each 30% defensive, like perhaps a Blood Price effect on Shadow Wall, an Expiacion reset chance on Sentinel, and a cartridge proc chance on Nebula. If you balance these effects around potency, there's no clear winner. [/QUOTE


Idk if I didn’t explain exactly what my aim if other tanks get something similar. But the motive was this thank you. Homogenizing skills that solve a problem is going to happen. Look back at every tank ability that was exclusive before TBN, DV, plunge, IR, gauges, intervention etc. So when I find outliers I ask do other jobs have this if not is there something of equal standing. If not then something is wrong because by SE law and the community, everything is/should be balanced. (Paraphrasing) If not then the law is wrong. So if people want to keep uniqueness you can’t about other jobs having something you don’t. Because if you do we fall back into the law or hard meta.

So to not fall from grace Lyth’s concept on homogeneity is the best (I say only) solution. A different answer to the same question.

There is a flaw to this as well which is kinda what we see now if that homogenization is to close it can cause things to feel the can. But too different can cause meta. This is a SE problem that we would have to work to inform them when it happens.
IE the forums Reddit etc. The community has to be sound in our choice and solid in our reason. Not just jump to pointing find at each other. Or hating something the first day we try it only to realize after its change that it was better before.
I hope in DT we can look at things with keenness and not just the first thought.

If it doesn't raise your HP value, it's not

I agree reason why I stated debatable

Sorry if I’m using you as an example
You just had some solid points.

[Vatom]

As for Pass Block, I assume you mean Passage of Arms having 100% block rate. Honestly completely fine to have, for self-mitigation you will almost never use it, but when you do there is a fun property about blocking that makes it better than normal mitigation.

All in all, Clemency + Passage are fine. I'd personally prefer more unique things about the other tanks rather than homogenization juice leaking out of all pipes.

Sorry I meant the passive block rating not passage of arms auto correct is a lovely lady.

I think more unique things to other tanks is great but if one gets something better then the other we can not complain then. Because fair is fair.

[Vatom]

Once upon a time, there was a thing called trade offs. The collective Warrior playerbase killed it.
Because one tank being better at one thing and worse at something else wasn't acceptable.
Clemency is a leftover of that design philosophy - trading damage for healing. It's one of the last well designed tank abilities.

I’m not here to point fingers but yes it was apart of that old design and maybe should be updated or removed depends on how DT will be.