I got a question! (PLD)

[Zairava]

Calling any of hs/hoc/bw balanced when compared to how they were in shadowbringers rings a bit hollow. bw is massively overtuned, but PLD/GNB/WAR are all sitting at over 3x the hp they'd have had mitigating an exactly lethal hit last expansion. (even allowing survival on 1hp with nascent)

Yeah, in hindsight I could've done better there. Especially since what I said doesn't align with my current thoughts.

The best "balance" they had with the short cd's was back in Shadowbringers, and Warrior's was only really busted in dungeons (albeit more satisfying to pull off). The tanks just have too much sustain in general. (obligatory bar Dark Knight here)

[Vatom]

snip.

Roughly yes thank you.

Well in these factors you are not wrong but they do have their equivalents as well (note though they have equivalents they don’t all have flavor)

Shake it off, missionary, heart, divine veil and passage of arms
(If anyone can complain in this realm it’s GNB and DRK)

Dark mind, vengeance, bulwark, camouflage( each of these are all relevant tank flavor CDs SE just jumbled when they are placed)

Aurora, intervention, nascent flash, oblation (all serve the purpose of giving someone a pat on the back. WAR being special only because they kinda fused it with their main sustain)



Note that all of these have equivalents and serve a purpose to the tank role

[A-Omega]

A PLD trend and of course someone has to say WAR is “over tuned”. Every other tank literally has multiple the utility tools then we do and still you cry for more of WARs blood. We’ve been the red headed stepchild since stormblood and excepted we’ll never be allowed out the basement.
Vatom isn’t even a WAR main or standing on WAR defense topic and yet, so why choose this as another opportunity to kick a WAR.

[Vatom]

snip

I agree it never was but a lot of people said it was and that’s why everyone got an equivalent.

WAR being more powerful has trade offs due to it needing it and it’s their core gimmick. It’s technically fair

HG is inconvenient now sure but you take no dmg even the devs don’t know how to combat that in a effective means (not saying remove it just call it for what it is)

Hi DRK main here been awhile but yes I was there

Also that was a one off response to an off topic just like this one, I will not continue to deviate.

[Zairava]

WAR being more powerful has trade offs due to it needing it and it’s their core gimmick. It’s technically fair

Sorry if I sound combative to you, but what downsides? Every single cooldown they have is free with no cost bar Fell Cleave/Decimate, they have FAR more sustain than they actually need. They're basically immortal in dungeons with little to no effort and provide the most potent party utility by a mile. Paladin needs to gimp itself to use Passage of Arms outside of big aoe damage when the boss is untargetable. (i.e Ultima transition phase in Orbonne). They can sustain themselves with Holmgang easily.

A PLD trend and of course someone has to say WAR is “over tuned”. Every other tank literally has multiple the utility tools then we do and still you cry for more of WARs blood. We’ve been the red headed stepchild since stormblood and excepted we’ll never be allowed out the basement.
Vatom isn’t even a WAR main or standing on WAR defense topic and yet, so why choose this as another opportunity to kick a WAR.

What the hell are you talking about? WAR is the entitled spoiled rich kid of the tanks and you want to go off and say it's the red-headed step-child?

• You got buffs to Shake it Off that the healers are supposed to handle (healing through bleeds). not once, but TWICE
• The already potent heal on Equilibrium wasn't enough, now you also have a potent HoT on it
• You have the strongest short cd (and by a landside in dungeons)
• You stole convalescence and got it tacked onto Thrill of Battle
• You guys complained until you got your damage buffs (even though it was the boss that was overtuned) and now you're the defacto tank because you have no downsides left

Warrior is overtuned, it isn't a debate of whether it is or it isn't. It just is, whether you want to admit it or not.

[Vatom]

Sorry if I sound combative to you, but what downsides? Every single cooldown they have is free with no cost bar Fell Cleave/Decimate, they have FAR more sustain than they actually need. They're basically immortal in dungeons with little to no effort and provide the most potent party utility by a mile. Paladin needs to gimp itself to use Passage of Arms outside of big aoe damage when the boss is untargetable. (i.e Ultima transition phase in Orbonne). They can sustain with HG(edited )

This isn’t about a tank being better. It’s about fair is fair. I stated I will not continue to deviate the conversation. So again I ask what is the “Equivalent” to clemency for the other tanks?

All I ask for is a justifiable reason it’s there against other tanks that don’t have something similar. This is why I said to ignore the other abilities because people get locked in on the wrong thing. Each job has a way of tackling opposition (for a lack of words Flavor) if this is a flavor button what job(tank) has a button just for flavor and isn’t apart of it’s essential kit. You don’t need clemency now, yes it’s amazing to save party members I agree helps feed into that hero fantasy. But!! Fair is Fair right? If they have this then other tanks should to, maybe not same same in execution but solve the experience none the less.

My goal isn’t to just throw it away, that’s the last thing I want. But! You have to acknowledge that now that HS and HC can heal you as well as your burst. That since they gained this the should lose that, if not give the other tanks something. Because fair is fair, the reason they even got that was because of the other tanks having a combo that gave some healing right? The justification for PLD not having this was clemency but now the do have it so in all in all either get rid of the thing they complained about or give other tanks something to offset the gain.

[A-Omega]

Entitled and spoiled huh…
BW is the strongest CD…really? What’s the purpose of a tank’s CD? To prevent death. Pop BW and press nothing see how far it gets you. GNB pops HoC you get the same mit plus a guaranteed heal for free. Can you do the same with BW??? I guess that’s what makes it the best.
You brought up convalescence right. What was WARs original tank stance, the one they changed for homogenization purposes…a heal potency increase and increased health. How can something we had all along be stolen???
Shake it off…you mean our 1 true party utility? PLD has 4, GNB has 3, DRK has 3. That’s called balance by value instead of numbers.
You brought up damage…I love this one. WAR has always been the damage tank. We had a dps stance that was actually relevant and completed the concept of what a WAR was supposed to be. “You hurt me, I hurt you more before you can kill me”. WAR always lacked traditional tankiness. Less mit, but more damage/health and health on hit as a compensator. Remove the damage, remove the heal, and you have the version of WAR we complained about. An identity less shell of its former shelf. Add in the fact WARs are swinging a weapon as big as another person…yea, it should do marginally more damage than someone swinging a toothpick.
Spoiled…really. PLDs complained about WAR having more damage during HW. PLDs complained about their stance switch only increasing their auto attack speed. PLDs complained about not having health per hit. PLDs complained about not having magic mit baked into their shields soft mit (the only tank who has that by the way). Every single expansion since, PLDs have gotten every single thing they asked for while WAR got dismantled for two complete expansions in a row, but we're the spoiled ones??? Spoiled but there was an entire section of time when WARs weren’t considered for the MT role, because of their lack of mitigation. We’ve always been considered the OT. How does that translate to spoiled rich kid??? I guess because we finally complained at the end of ShB that makes us “spoiled” huh. I think it makes us justified in demanding positive change.
If you had said vengeance is the best tank cd, I woulda agreed, but you didn’t. Mit plus damage is strong in anyone’s book and no other tank has something comparable.
Wow…there goes all your attempts at valid points. By all means…try again.

[AmiableApkallu]

My goal isn’t to just throw it away, that’s the last thing I want. But! You have to acknowledge that now that HS and HC can heal you as well as your burst. That since they gained this the should lose that, if not give the other tanks something. Because fair is fair, the reason they even got that was because of the other tanks having a combo that gave some healing right? The justification for PLD not having this was clemency but now the do have it so in all in all either get rid of the thing they complained about or give other tanks something to offset the gain.

In my mind, knights and paladins in Final Fantasy have always had access to a mild, direct, single-target heal. It's thematically appropriate; it falls under "protector of others." That's reason enough for PLD's Clemency to exist.

Now, if you'd like to ask, "Why does the remainder of PLD's kit have so much self-healing?", I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts there. (I have no strong opinion of my own.)

[Vatom]

In my mind, knights and paladins in Final Fantasy have always had access to a mild, direct, single-target heal. It's thematically appropriate; it falls under "protector of others." That's reason enough for PLD's Clemency to exist.

Now, if you'd like to ask, "Why does the remainder of PLD's kit have so much self-healing?", I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts there. (I have no strong opinion of my own.)

Thank for your stance on this matter. I also feel that way. That feeling is one of the things that makes FF so special. I just ask for more of that on the grounds of fairness to keep the meta at bay and if we can’t do that they should lose it. Or like one said revert back to when I had a place and take healing off of HS. I personally would rather others gain than losing something, it never feels nice.

Since it does link to the topic at hand I will respond to HS and HC sustain but remember their equivalent is other tanks combos into a heal so I will not humor anything else.

If you have any input on this please by all means

[Zairava]

big amount of text

You have got to be trolling at this point.

Bloodwhetting grants: Self-healing, a shield, and flat mitigation. You can press nothing but Bloodwhetting in basically everything except savage and ultimate and you'll be golden. Even Nascent Flash, the one you place on another party member, heals you.

1 true party utility? You still have nascent flash (which is essentially just bloodwhetting but put on another party member), you have shake it off. that's two. and shake it off has far a shield that can be buffed (defaults to 15%), heals, AND grants a HoT.

Paladin:

• Intervention: basically just Holy Sheltron but on another party member
• Cover: is virtually almost never used except for cheesing after it got neutered at Shadowbringers launch
• Clemency: you need to break your GCD to even cast this
• Passage of Arms: You literally cannot use this without sacrificing damage unless the boss is untargetable and dishing out aoe

Dark Knight:

• TBN: the actual same effect as if it were casted on yourself, Nascent Flash puts it to shame.
• Oblation: it's just 10% mit on a single party member or yourself lol
• Dark Missionary: it's exclusively 10% magic mitigation to the party

Gunbreaker:

• Aurora: just a flat regen on a single party member, not bad.
• Heart of Corundum: the same as if it was cast on yourself. Still less effective than Nascent Flash because Nascent Flash is literally just giving someone else Bloodwhetting, but it still heals you for some reason.
• Dark Missionary copy paste

Warrior's lack of mitigation hasn't been a problem since 2.1 as I recall. Also, convalescence was in Paladin's kit before Defiance got that added in, so, no, you still stole it from Paladin.

The soft mit that Paladin has doesn't actually amount to much when blocking is rng and can't be buffed outside of Bulwark.

Vengeance isn't anywhere near the best cd, that was surpassed as soon as TBN was released. And bar the counter damage, is equal with Shadow Wall and the other 120s cd's. Let alone Bloodwhetting, have you even read what Bloodwhetting does? and it's on a 25s cooldown, not 120s

MT/OT issues stopped existing when Shadowbringers launched

If you're going to come here and rave like you currently are maybe have some actual foundational arguments instead of making yourself look like a clown