I got a question! (PLD)

[AmiableApkallu]

My goal isn’t to just throw it away, that’s the last thing I want. But! You have to acknowledge that now that HS and HC can heal you as well as your burst. That since they gained this the should lose that, if not give the other tanks something. Because fair is fair, the reason they even got that was because of the other tanks having a combo that gave some healing right? The justification for PLD not having this was clemency but now the do have it so in all in all either get rid of the thing they complained about or give other tanks something to offset the gain.

In my mind, knights and paladins in Final Fantasy have always had access to a mild, direct, single-target heal. It's thematically appropriate; it falls under "protector of others." That's reason enough for PLD's Clemency to exist.

Now, if you'd like to ask, "Why does the remainder of PLD's kit have so much self-healing?", I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts there. (I have no strong opinion of my own.)

[Zairava]

This isn’t about a tank being better. It’s about fair is fair. I stated I will not continue to deviate the conversation. So again I ask what is the “Equivalent” to clemency for the other tanks?

All I ask for is a justifiable reason it’s there against other tanks that don’t have something similar. This is why I said to ignore the other abilities because people get locked in on the wrong thing. Each job has a way of tackling opposition (for a lack of words Flavor) if this is a flavor button what job(tank) has a button just for flavor and isn’t apart of it’s essential kit. You don’t need clemency now, yes it’s amazing to save party members I agree helps feed into that hero fantasy. But!! Fair is Fair right? If they have this then other tanks should to, maybe not same same in execution but solve the experience none the less.

My goal isn’t to just throw it away, that’s the last thing I want. But! You have to acknowledge that now that HS and HC can heal you as well as your burst. That since they gained this the should lose that, if not give the other tanks something. Because fair is fair, the reason they even got that was because of the other tanks having a combo that gave some healing right? The justification for PLD not having this was clemency but now the do have it so in all in all either get rid of the thing they complained about or give other tanks something to offset the gain.

I respect your devotion to the topic, it's good to see people like you on here.

To answer it, no. We don't need an equivalent to Clemency. That's just going to homogenize the tanks further and take away that niche Paladin has in its kit. I don't want a clemency equivalent on the other tanks because they really don't need it. I play Paladin, but I don't main it, and I don't wish to get it shoved into my kit because "well this one has it, the others should too". I'm very against that sort of design. It's the Paladin's cake, I don't want them to be forced to give me a slice of it.

[Vatom]

In my mind, knights and paladins in Final Fantasy have always had access to a mild, direct, single-target heal. It's thematically appropriate; it falls under "protector of others." That's reason enough for PLD's Clemency to exist.

Now, if you'd like to ask, "Why does the remainder of PLD's kit have so much self-healing?", I'd be interested in hearing people's thoughts there. (I have no strong opinion of my own.)

Thank for your stance on this matter. I also feel that way. That feeling is one of the things that makes FF so special. I just ask for more of that on the grounds of fairness to keep the meta at bay and if we can’t do that they should lose it. Or like one said revert back to when I had a place and take healing off of HS. I personally would rather others gain than losing something, it never feels nice.

Since it does link to the topic at hand I will respond to HS and HC sustain but remember their equivalent is other tanks combos into a heal so I will not humor anything else.

If you have any input on this please by all means

[A-Omega]

To answer it, no. We don't need an equivalent to Clemency. That's just going to homogenize the tanks further and take away that niche Paladin has in its kit. I don't want a clemency equivalent on the other tanks because they really don't need it. I play Paladin, but I don't main it, and I don't wish to get it shoved into my kit because "well this one has it, the others should too". I'm very against that sort of design. It's the Paladin's cake, I don't want them to be forced to give me a slice of it.[/QUOTE]


Good reply, but you just proved the point Vatom is trying to make.
SE set the standard that you can’t have everything. You can’t do damage if you have utility. BRD, DNC, RDM are examples of this. Having more is supposed to cost you and SE claimed that cost was damage. I don’t disagree with that at all, but once you set a governing rule…stand by it totally.
Personally I’m in favor of jobs having a personal feel no one else has. As for balance…balance is making them all viable in their role, even in the uniqueness. Seems to me this entire trend was meant to be an eye opener to the real problem. SE breaks their own rules when it suits them. It also enforces the “they shouldn’t have that” nonsense that plagues the forums. We all strive for uniqueness (which is why glam is the true end game) so why not mirror that in job play-styles. Unfortunately, jealousy runs deep in this community and years of enabling this kind of crappy behavior has painted them into a difficult corner.

[Zairava]

...Good reply, but you just proved the point Vatom is trying to make.
SE set the standard that you can’t have everything. You can’t do damage if you have utility. BRD, DNC, RDM are examples of this. Having more is supposed to cost you and SE claimed that cost was damage. I don’t disagree with that at all, but once you set a governing rule…stand by it totally.
Personally I’m in favor of jobs having a personal feel no one else has. As for balance…balance is making them all viable in their role, even in the uniqueness. Seems to me this entire trend was meant to be an eye opener to the real problem. SE breaks their own rules when it suits them. It also enforces the “they shouldn’t have that” nonsense that plagues the forums. We all strive for uniqueness (which is why glam is the true end game) so why not mirror that in job play-styles. Unfortunately, jealousy runs deep in this community and years of enabling this kind of crappy behavior has painted them into a difficult corner.

I've...never stated otherwise? I never said anywhere that Warrior should get all of it's healing removed, I only think it needs to be toned down a notch because it's ludicrously high right now.

[Rithy255]

Honestly Cover and Shield bash are both less useful I'd get rid of both way before clemency.

Clemency is
1. A good emergency tool that is actually consistent unlike cover.
2. Good Solo tool, blah blah "omg shield bash is like useful at stunning a mob"
3. A good progression tool, if you're learning a fight it's actually one of the best consistent skills at seeing fights longer and learning more.

Ideally clemency would be a OGCD MP tied ability leaving it so that if you spam it, by proxy you still lose damage because you have magic tied to damage, but good useage of it will lead to no such loss, maybe just remove healing on spell attacks though if this was ever a thing.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Do not mind me, I'm just gonna drop this for the repeated question of "what is the equivalent of XY on tank ABC". If there are questions, feel free to ask.



I did not include CD timers, mitigation % or heal/shield potencies for this spin, I am sure we can all read and refer to FFXIV's Official Job Guide (i.e. Ability list) for this. Here is a link: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/battle/

[Lyth]

Infuriate is Blood Weapon's equivalent, not Equilibrium. DRK doesn't really have an on-demand healing option. I would split resource generation and on-demand healing up because they're very different functions. If you're including resource generation on an otherwise defensive list, it probably makes sense to list gap closers (including Primal Rend) and include Shield Bash as well.

I think Clemency is a good choice aesthetically and illustrates how every instance of self-sustain does not have to be lifesteal. It just needs some situations in which it can be made damage neutral. PLD has historically had a few extra actions as a result of Stormblood, as it gained Total Eclipse as an extra action to offset Flash and had fewer action losses from the role action system.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

Infuriate is Blood Weapon's equivalent, not Equilibrium. DRK doesn't really have an on-demand healing option. I would split resource generation and on-demand healing up because they're very different functions. If you're including resource generation on an otherwise defensive list, it probably makes sense to list gap closers (including Primal Rend) and include Shield Bash as well.

I think Clemency is a good choice aesthetically and illustrates how every instance of self-sustain does not have to be lifesteal. It just needs some situations in which it can be made damage neutral. PLD has historically had a few extra actions as a result of Stormblood, as it gained Total Eclipse as an extra action to offset Flash and had fewer action losses from the role action system.

I specificially chose Bloodweapon as the equivalent here albeit forced due to the MP -> more safe/frequent usage of TBN interaction without hampering the use of Edge/Flood or having to wait about 4-5 combos + natural MP regen to do the rest. It is a reach, but in this sense it directly supports more TBN use.

That said, it is a multi-track equivalent, as you mentioned it also is basically Infuriate with extra steps, but unlike Blood Weapon, Infuriate has very limited impact on the actual mitigation/recovery. At most I distantly recall forced critical heals for one GCD under BW/NF, but that's hardly +200-240 heal potency at around +50-60% critical damage modifier.

This is why I count BW but not Infuriate. And by proxy most certainly not Primal Rend (we could make an argument about Inner Release KB/CC prevention), not Shield Bash (I assume you mention this due to stuns) and not dashes (they don't generate anything and have no defensive properties, what?).

[Vatom]

Do not mind me, I'm just gonna drop this for the repeated question of "what is the equivalent of XY on tank ABC". If there are questions, feel free to ask.



I did not include CD timers, mitigation % or heal/shield potencies for this spin, I am sure we can all read and refer to FFXIV's Official Job Guide (i.e. Ability list) for this. Here is a link: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/jobguide/battle/

Thank you. The blood weapon/ aurora I might have to debate on that but overall agree.

But sir the equivalent was just part of the question. If I might annoy you a bit. Do that it should be removed or that other tanks should have something with it (for a lack of words) potential? Also a personal question, I do apologize this seems off topic but it does affect my outlook. What about PLD pass block?