Feelings on FF14's Trinity System?

[Valence]

An idea I've been toying about when it comes to tank self sustain is to keep it because it's actually fun and gives a great feeling of tank power fantasy against the odds, but not give it freely on demand like it is right now. I like the DRK model for example where it's tied behind the invuln (which is busted granted). If suddenly all the self heals for example on WAR gets only unlocked when using an invuln (holmgang I guess?), you'd end up with something similar. Pushing the idea further, you could for example keep the invuln part of the ability like it is, or even reduce it to 4-6s for very targeted segments of an enemy attack (like the 4s of mitigation on all the signature defensives like bloodwhetting that we always forget about seeing they're the least impressive part of those). Added to that you could imagine a 15-20s of massive self healing or potent defensives like bloodwhetting and whatnot. Invulns would essentially shift to "last one standing" abilities that you can only use sparingly.

To give an idea, you could imagine it along those lines:

DRK: similar to now, invuln of X seconds, with its massive healing from damage done multiplicatively.
GNB: based on MNK's RoE in pvp, compile all the damage taken and heals for a % of it at the end or when the GNB presses the resolution button.
PLD: applies a holy shield equal to a % of the damage taken, and AoE heals around for an equal amount.
WAR: idk find something unique, perhaps with some damage counters: counters a % of the damage taken and AoE heals for the same amount?

It's just random ideas. Perhaps they're good, perhaps they're bad. But the idea is that you'd get that once or twice per raid, at best, then you're back to little self sustain, just your mitigators. So yeah i'd be okay with insane seal heals and similar cousins if they only happened every 6min or so.

[ty_taurus]

I would rather see it broken into one of two categories: healing that comes at an opportunity cost, and support that empowers the healers but cannot replace them.

With the former, an example of this would be Clemency. Being a GCD means Clemency comes at the cost of all other GCDs, and also consumes MP which is a part of Paladin's resource management. In solo, this provides a comfortable tool to sustain yourself, while in groups, it can be a tool for survival in a pinch. I don't think Clemency is perfect and there's more that could be done to make it feel more adequate, but conceptually I think the general niche it fills is fine.

For the later, I gave an example earlier of a reworked Divine Veil. Rather than do the healing for the healer, it grants a buff that adds more healing when each party member is healed. This would allow Paladin to provide help to healers in tight situations without doing their job for them. Other examples could include: Equilibrium increases how much HP is restored to Warrior when healed by 25%. Dark Knight could consume their HP and provide a barrier to themselves of value equal to the amount of HP consumed. This then allows healing the Dark Knight back up to provide more value through that barrier. Aurora could change to a field effect that logs a percentage of all HP restored to party members within the field, and when that hits a certain threshold based on a percentage of the Gunbreaker's max HP, dissipates and provides a barrier to the party equal to that value.

FOOTNOTE: Please note that the above suggestions are not mutually exclusive to any and all other changes that could be possibly be made.

[ASkellington]

I would rather see it broken into one of two categories: healing that comes at an opportunity cost, and support that empowers the healers but cannot replace them.

With the former, an example of this would be Clemency. Being a GCD means Clemency comes at the cost of all other GCDs, and also consumes MP which is a part of Paladin's resource management. In solo, this provides a comfortable tool to sustain yourself, while in groups, it can be a tool for survival in a pinch. I don't think Clemency is perfect and there's more that could be done to make it feel more adequate, but conceptually I think the general niche it fills is fine.

For the later, I gave an example earlier of a reworked Divine Veil. Rather than do the healing for the healer, it grants a buff that adds more healing when each party member is healed. This would allow Paladin to provide help to healers in tight situations without doing their job for them. Other examples could include: Equilibrium increases how much HP is restored to Warrior when healed by 25%. Dark Knight could consume their HP and provide a barrier to themselves of value equal to the amount of HP consumed. This then allows healing the Dark Knight back up to provide more value through that barrier. Aurora could change to a field effect that logs a percentage of all HP restored to party members within the field, and when that hits a certain threshold based on a percentage of the Gunbreaker's max HP, dissipates and provides a barrier to the party equal to that value.

FOOTNOTE: Please note that the above suggestions are not mutually exclusive to any and all other changes that could be possibly be made.

Aurora is fine on GNB. Even with 2 charges it doesn't heal enough by itself to be an issue for a healer. (it literally only replaces Regen/A. Benefic)

The issue with GNB is Heart of Corundum. The moment the GNB hits half health, they can hit the button and the heal is auto applied to them. Between that, plus two charges of Aurora and I believe its Brutal Shell's shield, GNB has pretty good survivability in a boss fight (W2W can be pretty dicey still). Enough so that I can solo a boss from 90-0 (haven't done 100 yet).

While I would be all for HoC to be tied to the Shell gauge... with the way SE wants the game I don't see it happening. And even then I see issues since Double Down costs 2. Rather, HoC should be more akin to TBN in that there is a set of damage that the GNB has to take first in order for the heal to be applied. This way they don't have a free recitation, they actually have to have the damage be applied first.

I would even suggest to take it a step further, as HoC has a short CD, that if the thresh hold isn't met (aka you use it willy nilly) the recast timer is lengthened. Rewarding good gameplay with said shorter CD.

I dunno. I don't see Aurora as a problem.

[ty_taurus]

I dunno. I don't see Aurora as a problem.

I wasn't specifically trying to target the biggest offenders of each tank in this particular example. I wanted to use Aurora as an example because I think it would be so much more interesting if it actually created an Aurora on the battlefield that provided some time of effect during its duration. An effect that generates a limited barrier based on the healing provided by the healers just sounded like an interesting direction for that effect.

Like I pointed out in the footnote, those particular suggestions are not mutually exclusive to any and all other specific changes that could potentially occur. So that could also be in conjunction with a Heart of Corundum rework.

[ASkellington]

I wasn't specifically trying to target the biggest offenders of each tank in this particular example. I wanted to use Aurora as an example because I think it would be so much more interesting if it actually created an Aurora on the battlefield that provided some time of effect during its duration. An effect that generates a limited barrier based on the healing provided by the healers just sounded like an interesting direction for that effect.

Like I pointed out in the footnote, those particular suggestions are not mutually exclusive to any and all other specific changes that could potentially occur. So that could also be in conjunction with a Heart of Corundum rework.

I'll disagree to the change to Aurora to be interesting. I'd personally find it to be more cumbersome than anything. And even if I didn't, it doesn't make sense for a HoT to now become an AoE build up barrier. That seems better suited to Heart of Light.

[Oizen]

I mean while I personally am not the biggest fan of front positionals I genuinely have no idea what tank mains want at this point that isn’t game breaking

Half the tank mains like the current system where the healer is near non existent, the other half only seem to care internally about how WAR is so much better than the other tanks and not that tanks are warping the entire game around them which tends to lead to “solutions” that basically amount to “make healers do something else that’s not healing like buffing” if you ask the first group and “just give every tank bloodwhetting” if you ask the latter group. Neither of which fixes how much the tanks warp the trinity

I’ll take flawed ideas with good intentions over the absolute nothing that’s coming out of the tank camp that doesn’t amount to “my role needs to stay the best at everything every other role should change around me”

stance dancing pls

[ty_taurus]

I'll disagree to the change to Aurora to be interesting. I'd personally find it to be more cumbersome than anything. And even if I didn't, it doesn't make sense for a HoT to now become an AoE build up barrier. That seems better suited to Heart of Light.

Are you saying that Aurora would not be more interesting if the visual effect were an actual aurora on the battlefield vs a sparkly Cure-looking effect? Or are you commenting on the idea of an effect that stores a percentage of healing received and turning that into a barrier is not more interesting? Because if it's the later, do note that these are simply examples that I was sharing to communicate an idea and do not need to be interpreted as definitively unchanging suggestions that must exist as they are written or the entire concept completely falls apart.

Also, reworked actions aren't things that need to be physically changed. It's not like you're manually changing what a coffee machine is to what a washing machine is where there is virtually nothing the two machines have in common and thus defeats the purpose of trying to repurposing an existing item in the first place. So while it might, in a real-world setting, be a lot easier to repurpose something to have a function that compliments the original design in some capacity... For example, cutting up an old shower curtain into a smock you can wear while painting your bathroom... It doesn't really matter what Aurora was vs what it can be changed into because what's being changed is data.

But regardless, I think you're missing the point of what I was saying anyway. I was talking about breaking down Tank sustain into two categories, so I don't really understand why we're scrutinizing a particular example, which is exactly that--an example, rather than talking about the concept.

[ASkellington]

Are you saying that Aurora would not be more interesting if the visual effect were an actual aurora on the battlefield vs a sparkly Cure-looking effect? Or are you commenting on the idea of an effect that stores a percentage of healing received and turning that into a barrier is not more interesting? Because if it's the later, do note that these are simply examples that I was sharing to communicate an idea and do not need to be interpreted as definitively unchanging suggestions that must exist as they are written or the entire concept completely falls apart.

The latter. VFX I don't generally care about over functionality. And no, I don't find the idea of turning a single target HoT into a party wide barrier based on heal percentage interesting. Of all the things I'd like to see a party contribute to or for cross-role interactivity engage with, that isn't one of them.

[ty_taurus]

The latter. VFX I don't generally care about over functionality. And no, I don't find the idea of turning a single target HoT into a party wide barrier based on heal percentage interesting. Of all the things I'd like to see a party contribute to or for cross-role interactivity engage with, that isn't one of them.

Well, like I said before, that was not the focus of the post you were responding to. It was an example to communicate a point, but you're fixated on me calling that one example "Aurora" instead of "Heart of Light" or "Heart of Corundum" and ended the train of thought at that station.

[ASkellington]

Well, like I said before, that was not the focus of the post you were responding to. It was an example to communicate a point, but you're fixated on me calling that one example "Aurora" instead of "Heart of Light" or "Heart of Corundum" and ended the train of thought at that station.

Your point was addressed in my initial post.

Specifically here:

While I would be all for HoC to be tied to the Shell gauge... with the way SE wants the game I don't see it happening. And even then I see issues since Double Down costs 2. Rather, HoC should be more akin to TBN in that there is a set of damage that the GNB has to take first in order for the heal to be applied. This way they don't have a free recitation, they actually have to have the damage be applied first.

I'd LOVE to see more interaction with the gauge on all tanks, not just GNB, I don't see it happening with mitagation since, iirc from what I've read, we HAD that and it was REMOVED.

More to your point, I don't find, in general, it to be a good or even FUN mechanic to have a barrier interact with healing from the healers as a solution to dilute tank sustain. Its an idea. Its not one I welcome. Regardless of whether its on Aurora (which to me personally doesn't fit, hence why I mentioned it) or on HoL.

I didn't mention the other tanks because I don't play them enough to feel comfortable in addressing them and would rather mains of them tackle it cause they know the classes better but -

Clemency is probably the best out of those since it uses MP, and the rest are free, but I would argue that Aurora being weak as it is (and NO SE it doesn't need a third charge) and Abyssal Drain being on its 60 CD is fine, at your oppertunity cost as it were and don't need to be tied to anything.

Bloodwhetting has plenty that can be done with it. Increase the recast timer, out right nerf the amount in and of itself (how is w/e). Tie it to rage, change it from being a heal that imo doesn't belong on WAR and instead make it into another Thrill that either increases HP per hit for X seconds for the WAR or the Party (or a shield) up to a certain amount. I don't exactly CARE what happens to it persay so long as it gets addressed.

Divine Veil and Shake it Off (over time) are out of my depth outside of - does PLD/WAR need extra group healing in this economy? no - but in theory I don't have problems with either (other than SiO has no business being a HoT on WAR). Again, could be tied to gauge. I'd find that to be interesting. I don't see it happening.