Feelings on FF14's Trinity System?

[Supersnow845]

I just think in general incidental healing shouldn’t be the purview of tanks (PLD kinda gets a partial pass as it’s a holy knight)

Why not (using an incredibly simple example) that bloodwhetting rather than triggering heals did something like if you hit 4 GCD’s under it (or used a specific GCD under it) it procced like an extra 20 seconds of 10% mitigation or 20 seconds of 10% HP up

The bigger problem with tank heals is not so much they have them it’s the fact they are overwhelmingly incidental, equilibrium and aurora are straight up just free healer heals and SIO is stronger than any single healer heal in the game

Ironically clemency is actually the best designed tank heal

[ASkellington]

I just think in general incidental healing shouldn’t be the purview of tanks (PLD kinda gets a partial pass as it’s a holy knight)

Why not (using an incredibly simple example) that bloodwhetting rather than triggering heals did something like if you hit 4 GCD’s under it (or used a specific GCD under it) it procced like an extra 20 seconds of 10% mitigation or 20 seconds of 10% HP up

The bigger problem with tank heals is not so much they have them it’s the fact they are overwhelmingly incidental, equilibrium and aurora are straight up just free healer heals and SIO is stronger than any single healer heal in the game

Ironically clemency is actually the best designed tank heal

You're gonna have to explain "incidental" in this context.

I'm assuming based on your post you mean "free of cost".

Regardless, I don't exactly agree... I don't disagree either. I suppose the best way of putting it is - I wouldn't care if there was enough damage out there to warrant the healing, free or not, on a tank. Or a DPS for that matter. Encounter design sadly doesn't support it.

[Supersnow845]

You're gonna have to explain "incidental" in this context.

I'm assuming based on your post you mean "free of cost".

Regardless, I don't exactly agree... I don't disagree either. I suppose the best way of putting it is - I wouldn't care if there was enough damage out there to warrant the healing, free or not, on a tank. Or a DPS for that matter. Encounter design sadly doesn't support it.

Not so much free more so besides Aurora and equilibrium almost all tank healing comes from pressing buttons they were already going to press at near the same time

Let’s say we removed the heal off bloodwhetting, HOC, HS and the rotational heals (including PLD’s magic healing), near nothing about when they press these buttons will actually change, it’s just now you press the same buttons and get massive amounts of healing out of it. Think of heart of stone or Shelton, they provided mitigation but not healing, you still pressed them in roughly the same places you pressed holy Shelton and HOC but now you get free healing out of it

Tank healing should either have to be planned or come at a cost. Clemency is the big example however old nascent flash is a different type of design you could look into, what if nascent flash only healed you if you used a nascent chaos skill under it but always provides the mitigation no matter when you pressed it

[VentVanitas]

Equilibrium made more sense when it had different effects under what stance you were in and could be used to quickly gain aggro when pulling. since ShB it's just been one of the best unconditional heals in the game since the WAR can just whip it out whenever they feel slightly threatened.

[ASkellington]

Not so much free more so besides Aurora and equilibrium almost all tank healing comes from pressing buttons they were already going to press at near the same time

Let’s say we removed the heal off bloodwhetting, HOC, HS and the rotational heals (including PLD’s magic healing), near nothing about when they press these buttons will actually change, it’s just now you press the same buttons and get massive amounts of healing out of it. Think of heart of stone or Shelton, they provided mitigation but not healing, you still pressed them in roughly the same places you pressed holy Shelton and HOC but now you get free healing out of it

Tank healing should either have to be planned or come at a cost. Clemency is the big example however old nascent flash is a different type of design you could look into, what if nascent flash only healed you if you used a nascent chaos skill under it but always provides the mitigation no matter when you pressed it

I mean, personally I'd take it a step further, in that you'd need to use a resource to get both, but depending on how its done I can see... some issues.

I mention HoC with the Shell gauge as an example that could be problematic for instance. But the idea isn't a bad one I don't think as long as its the heal alone.

Though... I do worry about the... "ease of access". For example, if you need the heal, but you don't have access to a nascent chaos ability to proc. I suppose it would be a decent skill expression though. To work for a heal.

Aurora I'm not sure about though. Imo its too weak and to me it supports the healer well enough. Could probably just drop the charge back to 1 or leave it.

[ty_taurus]

More to your point, I don't find, in general, it to be a good or even FUN mechanic to have a barrier interact with healing from the healers as a solution to dilute tank sustain. Its an idea. Its not one I welcome. Regardless of whether its on Aurora (which to me personally doesn't fit, hence why I mentioned it) or on HoL.

I didn't mention the other tanks because I don't play them enough to feel comfortable in addressing them and would rather mains of them tackle it cause they know the classes better but -

Clemency is probably the best out of those since it uses MP, and the rest are free, but I would argue that Aurora being weak as it is (and NO SE it doesn't need a third charge) and Abyssal Drain being on its 60 CD is fine, at your oppertunity cost as it were and don't need to be tied to anything.

Okay, fair. That particular example isn't mechanically to your liking. Was I was more going for were just examples of how sustain on tanks, instead of being directly restorative as they currently are, are instead designed to enhance the effects of the healers or add to their healing, that way they can still provide sustain without being self-sufficient enough to replace the healers in everyday content. Perhaps that specific effect isn't to your liking, but I would be more interested in talking about that concept as a whole, such as the other examples I gave regardless of which tank they're on.

- A Plenary Indulgence effect that adds additional healing potency to heals received, and redirects all aggro generated from healing to the user.
- A buff that simply increases how much HP the user recovers when healed.
- Converting ones own HP into a barrier value that way a healer can restore the missing HP with the barrier still intact.

These are all effects that the tanks can also still utilize on their own by relying on those other opportunity cost actions. Paladin could use Divine Veil and then use Clemency on themselves in solo content to increase the amount of healing they receive. Additionally, there are undoubtably other possible ways of approaching sustain in that way outside those three or the barrier effect you didn't like. So even if my specific examples suck, perhaps there are better ideas someone else could come up with that follows that type of logic that may be much stronger than the examples I gave.

[Supersnow845]

I mean, personally I'd take it a step further, in that you'd need to use a resource to get both, but depending on how its done I can see... some issues.

I mention HoC with the Shell gauge as an example that could be problematic for instance. But the idea isn't a bad one I don't think as long as its the heal alone.

Though... I do worry about the... "ease of access". For example, if you need the heal, but you don't have access to a nascent chaos ability to proc. I suppose it would be a decent skill expression though. To work for a heal.

Aurora I'm not sure about though. Imo its too weak and to me it supports the healer well enough. Could probably just drop the charge back to 1 or leave it.

That’s why in previous posts I’ve discussed the return of active or GCD mitigation

If we applied my random example proposal to nascent flash and then suddenly you need to “heal” but don’t have access to nascent chaos at the time you can drop damage to apply a GCD mitigation to achieve functionally the same thing

Expression comes from using your limited healing to reduce your GCD mitigation load, similar to how the healers work outside of their god awful damage rotation because I think most people agree the healing side of healers is more interesting than the tanking side of tanks

[ASkellington]

That’s why in previous posts I’ve discussed the return of active or GCD mitigation

If we applied my random example proposal to nascent flash and then suddenly you need to “heal” but don’t have access to nascent chaos at the time you can drop damage to apply a GCD mitigation to achieve functionally the same thing

Expression comes from using your limited healing to reduce your GCD mitigation load, similar to how the healers work outside of their god awful damage rotation because I think most people agree the healing side of healers is more interesting than the tanking side of tanks

I don't see it happening, but it is something I'd like to see happen. More so for mitigations over sustain, but I'd take either.

[Oizen]

I just think in general incidental healing shouldn’t be the purview of tanks (PLD kinda gets a partial pass as it’s a holy knight)

Why not (using an incredibly simple example) that bloodwhetting rather than triggering heals did something like if you hit 4 GCD’s under it (or used a specific GCD under it) it procced like an extra 20 seconds of 10% mitigation or 20 seconds of 10% HP up

The bigger problem with tank heals is not so much they have them it’s the fact they are overwhelmingly incidental, equilibrium and aurora are straight up just free healer heals and SIO is stronger than any single healer heal in the game

Ironically clemency is actually the best designed tank heal

I think Heart of Corundum is fairly well designed as a tank heal, Its buff being fairly long means you can't really spam it on CD and expect it to work. It wont save you from lethal hits, but its a pretty powerful heal if you do it right.

Then they stopped trying when they made Holy Sheltron and Bloodwhetting

[Absurdity]

Equilibrium made more sense when it had different effects under what stance you were in and could be used to quickly gain aggro when pulling. since ShB it's just been one of the best unconditional heals in the game since the WAR can just whip it out whenever they feel slightly threatened.

Basically applies to warrior healing in general. You had strong selfheal in Stormblood as well, it just required a trade-off. You could spam Inner Beast to heal close to full and keep up 20% mitigation while doing so, but it required you to give up your Fell Cleave spam.