Feelings on FF14's Trinity System?

[Zairava]

Mao thinkings would be good to has DPS need manage thems aggros more often and maybe also make tanks need to work bits harder to keeps aggro off DPS and Healers. Rights now Mao can go "balls-to-the-walls" as BLMs and never need worries. Mao thinkings this makes Mao job maybe little bits too easy. Buts with this change everyones would also need to has ways to track aggro betters and fights might need be adjusted for this. DPS checks would still be needed for hard fights but in some cases mights need be toned down little bits.

It actually used to be like this.

Tanks had an enmity combo and a proper tank stance, not what could be referred to as enmity stance since the start of Shadowbringers.

Dps had Diversion and healers had lucid dreaming to reduce aggro generation, ninja even had buttons that interacted with aggro and were invaluable because of it.

While I personally enjoyed it more like it was before Shadowbringers, I don't ever see us going back. I'm sure it could be implemented better, but I don't think it's remotely on their radar or interest.

[ty_taurus]

Mao thinkings would be good to has DPS need manage thems aggros more often and maybe also make tanks need to work bits harder to keeps aggro off DPS and Healers. Rights now Mao can go "balls-to-the-walls" as BLMs and never need worries. Mao thinkings this makes Mao job maybe little bits too easy. Buts with this change everyones would also need to has ways to track aggro betters and fights might need be adjusted for this. DPS checks would still be needed for hard fights but in some cases mights need be toned down little bits.

Personally, I don’t think DPS and healers are the ones who needed to manage their aggro generation. I’d rather tanks get aggro management back, but it be something they handle themselves in more interactive ways than just “tank stance ON” and provoke/shirk. Imagine, for example, a reworked Divine Veil for Paladin that looks something like this:

Grants a buff to self and nearby party members for 15 seconds. Restores HP to target with a potency of 200 when target recovers HP; this effect can only trigger once per 3 seconds. Additionally, you receive 150% of enmity generated from healing on the target.

In other words, rather than directly competing with a healer’s healing, it adds additional healing when your healer heals, takes all the aggro they would generate for that healing and multiplies it.

Tanks could instead of having tank stance, have more effects like this that allow them to manage their aggro in ways that are more unique to different situations. Along with having some standard ways of managing aggro too of course.

Also, it would be cool if tanks had front positionals.

[Zairava]

Personally, I don’t think DPS and healers are the ones who needed to manage their aggro generation. I’d rather tanks get aggro management back, but it be something they handle themselves in more interactive ways than just “tank stance ON” and provoke/shirk. Imagine, for example, a reworked Divine Veil for Paladin that looks something like this:

Grants a buff to self and nearby party members for 15 seconds. Restores HP to target with a potency of 200 when target recovers HP; this effect can only trigger once per 3 seconds. Additionally, you receive 150% of enmity generated from healing on the target.

In other words, rather than directly competing with a healer’s healing, it adds additional healing when your healer heals, takes all the aggro they would generate for that healing and multiplies it.

Tanks could instead of having tank stance, have more effects like this that allow them to manage their aggro in ways that are more unique to different situations. Along with having some standard ways of managing aggro too of course.

Also, it would be cool if tanks had front positionals.

I am an advocate for aggro being something I have to manage myself.

front positionals though...please god no.

[ty_taurus]

I am an advocate for aggro being something I have to manage myself.

front positionals though...please god no.

If you’re the main tank all your attacks are going to hit at the front anyway. Or inversely you could have some actions that are stronger when attack enemies of which you have the highest enmity. That’s one way you could more subtly establish a main tank/off tank duality.

Warrior and Paladin have certain attacks that hit harder when you have the most enmity.

[Zairava]

If you’re the main tank all your attacks are going to hit at the front anyway. Or inversely you could have some actions that are stronger when attack enemies of which you have the highest enmity. That’s one way you could more subtly establish a main tank/off tank duality.

Warrior and Paladin have certain attacks that hit harder when you have the most enmity.

I'm not worried about not hitting them as the main tank, I'm worried about how that would conflict with tank specific mechanics as the off-tank.

I actually like positionals, but I think that they haven't existed on tanks for pretty good reason. Outside of the fact you'll always be facing the front of boss, anyway. Tank positionals would only really be relevant for the off-tank...which..actually...huh.

If they were to introduce positionals on tanks, that would theoretically make it open to abilities in the kit to have MT abilities back (think Blood Price) without people having a stroke over losing damage while not MT

Still though, I don't see them doing something like this when they've been removing positionals gradually anyway

[LilimoLimomo]

If you’re the main tank all your attacks are going to hit at the front anyway.

This is probably true most of the time, but there are plenty of exceptions. It's pretty common for bosses to have attacks where their facing isn't determined by their primary aggro target; Coin-counter, the ShB's dungeon Berserker, the normal raid Shadowkeeper fight, etc.

[Valence]

What do you all think is going to happen someday after constantly simplifying the system?

Personally, I'd love to see a tank system where tanks don't hold aggro, and instead defend the party by intercepting attacks with their bodies, interrupting attacks, and using moves like Cover/The Blackest Night. This solves the problem of it being silly that intelligent foes just keep attacking the sturdiest party member, while also letting the tank feel like they are actively protecting their allies.

That said, I also accept that what I just described is such a departure from our current systems that it would require a game-wide rework of content to work, and thus it's incredibly unlikely we'll ever see such a thing in FF14.

They could do both. You have 2 tanks in the party, why should the off tank constantly be twiddling their thumbs, playing a tank privileged dps that nothing can kill but body checks, and occasionally tank swapping when required?

MT holds aggro, OT grabs add aggro (since when have we even had true adds in challenging content...?), OT covers party members. If OT is out of covering actions, OT can swap with MT as well, which would surely bring more types of mechanics to actually make them swap beyond stupid busters that need be invulned.

[ty_taurus]

The idea was more like, the front positionals are for the main tank, not the off tank, like the positional effect is increased enmity generation. But I think the bigger flaw isn’t actually with the positionals themselves but bosses that don’t have positionals and thus always trigger them. Like if you’re facing a wall boss, the off tank would be triggering the extra enmity as well.

Maybe it would make more sense to have certain actions that have different effects based on if you’re at the top of a target’s threat table or not. Like if you’re at the top of the threat table, the action inflicts a damage down debuff and further increases enmity. If you’re second on the threat table, the attack deals increased damage.

[AmiableApkallu]

To take maybe a slightly different tack on the OP's question:

Solo duties where there are clearly many, many other people around you utterly fail to take advantage of the trinity. If I'm running the MSQ as a healer, maybe the solo duties should focus on my ability to heal everyone else. If I'm running the MSQ as a tank, maybe the solo duties should put me at the vanguard, drawing the attention of the enemy and keeping them occupied. If I'm running the MSQ as a DPS, maybe the solo duties should really test my ability to squash the enemy before they overrun everyone else.

[Absurdity]

The idea was more like, the front positionals are for the main tank, not the off tank, like the positional effect is increased enmity generation. But I think the bigger flaw isn’t actually with the positionals themselves but bosses that don’t have positionals and thus always trigger them. Like if you’re facing a wall boss, the off tank would be triggering the extra enmity as well.

Maybe it would make more sense to have certain actions that have different effects based on if you’re at the top of a target’s threat table or not. Like if you’re at the top of the threat table, the action inflicts a damage down debuff and further increases enmity. If you’re second on the threat table, the attack deals increased damage.

I don't think you can attach any kind of DPS bonus to being the main or off tank, it will inevitably create issues with people not wanting to take the spot that makes them do less damage for basically no reason.
We already had that problem when all it did was mess with your opener and I doubt you're gonna get that out of the playerbase at this point.

The other issue with frontal positionals, depending on what they end up doing, is bosses with any kind of AoE busters or cleaves.