Feelings on FF14's Trinity System?

[Ardeth]

snip.

To be fair, the players did that. There's nothing wrong with identity in the trinity. There's something wrong when every design incorporates going as fast as possible as efficiently as possible. That's why tanks and healers are dps classes with extra steps. But the trinity is fine as it is. Like I said, every game that breaks from it eventually comes crawling back to it. Getting rid of it won't make them feel better. It always makes them feel worse. Being a "tank" in GW2 is the damn most unrewarding experience in life.

Personally, I think harder dungeons and more involved rotations removing the agro system of lack there of we have now is a move in a better direction. Make a mob of enemies threatening so the healer can barely dps instead of only dpsing. Giving players options to CC enemies and making the experience more of an experience and less of an endurance test to stay awake.

[Supersnow845]

To be fair, the players did that. There's nothing wrong with identity in the trinity. There's something wrong when every design incorporates going as fast as possible as efficiently as possible. That's why tanks and healers are dps classes with extra steps. But the trinity is fine as it is. Like I said, every game that breaks from it eventually comes crawling back to it. Getting rid of it won't make them feel better. It always makes them feel worse. Being a "tank" in GW2 is the damn most unrewarding experience in life.

Personally, I think harder dungeons and more involved rotations removing the agro system of lack there of we have now is a move in a better direction. Make a mob of enemies threatening so the healer can barely dps instead of only dpsing. Giving players options to CC enemies and making the experience more of an experience and less of an endurance test to stay awake.

“Removing the agro system”

My brother in Christ what do you actually want tanks to do at this point

The agro system is literally the last vestige of the blue role, remove that and there is nothing separating tanks from slightly garbage melee

[Oizen]

“Removing the agro system”

My brother in Christ what do you actually want tanks to do at this point

The agro system is literally the last vestige of the blue role, remove that and there is nothing separating tanks from slightly garbage melee

Well to be honest, Aggro and emnity has never been a good system in this game, and its basically never been the Tank's responsibility.
Even in the rose tinted glasses area of tanking, you'd maybe press the enmity combo once, turn off defense stance and only be in dps stance the rest of the fight unless some job specific mechanic made you get out of it.

Hell I'm pretty sure it ended up being Ninja's job to handle enmity.

[Supersnow845]

Well to be honest, Aggro and emnity has never been a good system in this game, and its basically never been the Tank's responsibility.
Even in the rose tinted glasses area of tanking, you'd maybe press the enmity combo once, turn off defense stance and only be in dps stance the rest of the fight unless some job specific mechanic made you get out of it.

Hell I'm pretty sure it ended up being Ninja's job to handle enmity.

So again literally what do you actually want the tanks to do (~~besides be the healer~~)

No enmity, basically immortal, a wealth of healing a defensives, a rotation that is far easier than the melee

What are even your responsibilities at that point, you are just playing an immortal melee DPS

[Oizen]

So again literally what do you actually want the tanks to do (~~besides be the healer~~)

No enmity, basically immortal, a wealth of healing a defensives, a rotation that is far easier than the melee

What are even your responsibilities at that point, you are just playing an immortal melee DPS

Boss Positioning used to be fun until they decided melee downtime was illegal.

I still think proper mitigation cycling and optimization is fun, the problem is the discrepancy of outgoing damage in low end/high end content.
In high end content I actually think the current suite of mitigation is tested fairly well, WAR isn't as broken in single target situations, DRK's lack of sustain isn't an issue in raids
In low end content, Tank mastery (baseline 20% mit at all times) basically is all the mitigation you'll ever need forcibly baked in to the job, which I don't like and think the first step to fixing tank is removing this trait.

I mean to be blunt here, I think the dungeon gameplay and normal content in this game just sorta sucks, I avoid doing dungeons and roulette content whenever I can. To me, the best place where tank has ever felt properly tested is Criterion, especially savage and and no one does that.

[Ardeth]

Boss Positioning used to be fun until they decided melee downtime was illegal.

I still think proper mitigation cycling and optimization is fun, the problem is the discrepancy of outgoing damage in low end/high end content.
In high end content I actually think the current suite of mitigation is tested fairly well, WAR isn't as broken in single target situations, DRK's lack of sustain isn't an issue in raids
In low end content, Tank mastery (baseline 20% mit at all times) basically is all the mitigation you'll ever need forcibly baked in to the job, which I don't like and think the first step to fixing tank is removing this trait.

I mean to be blunt here, I think the dungeon gameplay and normal content in this game just sorta sucks, I avoid doing dungeons and roulette content whenever I can. To me, the best place where tank has ever felt properly tested is Criterion, especially savage and and no one does that.

Dungeons are the worst part of this game. Featureless hallways. People are playing on autopilot complaining when someone deviates.

[Supersnow845]

Boss Positioning used to be fun until they decided melee downtime was illegal.

I still think proper mitigation cycling and optimization is fun, the problem is the discrepancy of outgoing damage in low end/high end content.
In high end content I actually think the current suite of mitigation is tested fairly well, WAR isn't as broken in single target situations, DRK's lack of sustain isn't an issue in raids
In low end content, Tank mastery (baseline 20% mit at all times) basically is all the mitigation you'll ever need forcibly baked in to the job, which I don't like and think the first step to fixing tank is removing this trait.

I mean to be blunt here, I think the dungeon gameplay and normal content in this game just sorta sucks, I avoid doing dungeons and roulette content whenever I can. To me, the best place where tank has ever felt properly tested is Criterion, especially savage and and no one does that.

I’ve never understood why people think WAR or PLD is remotely balanced in single target

Sure they aren’t as cracked as cleave content but the level of healing is still absolutely absurd for little reason

[Rithy255]

Well to be honest, Aggro and emnity has never been a good system in this game, and its basically never been the Tank's responsibility.
Even in the rose tinted glasses area of tanking, you'd maybe press the enmity combo once, turn off defense stance and only be in dps stance the rest of the fight unless some job specific mechanic made you get out of it.

Hell I'm pretty sure it ended up being Ninja's job to handle enmity.

I feel like this is the issue though, It was never properly tried because DPS for some reason had a lot of aggro management systems in place (ninja) so it became less of a tanking jobs focus, Also the fact is tanky stances weren't really required as a main tank their became No reason to use your defensive stance.

I feel as if, You 1. Made tank stances more important, aka you could tie mitigation to it and the inbuilt defensive value is strong without it you're just a melee DPS defensive wise ect. 2. Add gameplay rotational differences based on what stances are active, In a DPS stance dark knight for example could have a haste buff, PLD could unlock stronger "sword oath" attacks that change up your combo paths ect ect. I feel as this is all actually fairly balanceable just the effort required would never be put in, because trying to make tanks and healers interesting and feel fun and unique isn't a priority.

Not to say omg tanks have to have aggro management but Surely they could at least make tanks more fun to play, but in reality tanks have been getting dummed down rotationally despite aggro management being took away, boss movement has become less Important the issue isn't that aggro management was removed, I'm fine with that but nothing was there to replace it... Which is the core of the issue Tank design is so boring, flat plain and so safe.

I feel like SE is too afraid to make support kits interesting because the idea of one job being left behind holds back interesting design to the point where having different and unique jobs makes no sense because everything plays the same. This hurts support jobs the most as at least DPS can have interesting rotational differences, while tanks and healers are designed to have the most uninspired boring rotations imaginable because of the trend of trying to make the jobs easy to play while also making their kits so similar.

[Ardeth]

“Removing the agro system”

My brother in Christ what do you actually want tanks to do at this point

The agro system is literally the last vestige of the blue role, remove that and there is nothing separating tanks from slightly garbage melee

Fating on enemies and holding agro forever is boring gameplay. You used to have to work for agro.

[LilimoLimomo]

“Removing the agro system”

My brother in Christ what do you actually want tanks to do at this point

The agro system is literally the last vestige of the blue role, remove that and there is nothing separating tanks from slightly garbage melee

Personally, I'd love to see a tank system where tanks don't hold aggro, and instead defend the party by intercepting attacks with their bodies, interrupting attacks, and using moves like Cover/The Blackest Night. This solves the problem of it being silly that intelligent foes just keep attacking the sturdiest party member, while also letting the tank feel like they are actively protecting their allies.

That said, I also accept that what I just described is such a departure from our current systems that it would require a game-wide rework of content to work, and thus it's incredibly unlikely we'll ever see such a thing in FF14.