Feelings on FF14's Trinity System?

[Supersnow845]

I mean while I personally am not the biggest fan of front positionals I genuinely have no idea what tank mains want at this point that isn’t game breaking

Half the tank mains like the current system where the healer is near non existent, the other half only seem to care internally about how WAR is so much better than the other tanks and not that tanks are warping the entire game around them which tends to lead to “solutions” that basically amount to “make healers do something else that’s not healing like buffing” if you ask the first group and “just give every tank bloodwhetting” if you ask the latter group. Neither of which fixes how much the tanks warp the trinity

I’ll take flawed ideas with good intentions over the absolute nothing that’s coming out of the tank camp that doesn’t amount to “my role needs to stay the best at everything every other role should change around me”

[Gemina]

I’ll take flawed ideas with good intentions over the absolute nothing that’s coming out of the tank camp that doesn’t amount to “my role needs to stay the best at everything every other role should change around me”

I wonder how tank mains would feel if we told them they are essentially the Mary Sues of FFXIV?

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

I wonder how tank mains would feel if we told them they are essentially the Mary Sues of FFXIV?

They'll just shake it off tbh.

/j

[Oizen]

I mean while I personally am not the biggest fan of front positionals I genuinely have no idea what tank mains want at this point that isn’t game breaking

Half the tank mains like the current system where the healer is near non existent, the other half only seem to care internally about how WAR is so much better than the other tanks and not that tanks are warping the entire game around them which tends to lead to “solutions” that basically amount to “make healers do something else that’s not healing like buffing” if you ask the first group and “just give every tank bloodwhetting” if you ask the latter group. Neither of which fixes how much the tanks warp the trinity

I’ll take flawed ideas with good intentions over the absolute nothing that’s coming out of the tank camp that doesn’t amount to “my role needs to stay the best at everything every other role should change around me”

stance dancing pls

[Lyth]

I think the approach to self-sustain taken this expansion is flawed and uninteresting. The appeal in lifesteal comes down to skillful execution and surviving against all odds. Building in heals and regens into actions that you press all the time doesn't really develop that skill execution. It just creates situations where tanks are either 0% or 100%. Self-sustain needs to be deliberate, and be timing dependent. You only really get a sense of risk if you're constantly in the bottom half of your HP bar. Tank sustain needs to be revised, not just for the sake of healers, but for the sake of tanks as well. This comes back to that platformer without pitfalls analogy.

While toning back self-sustain on tanks is important, I don't think that resolves the discontent that healers have been expressing for a few expansions now. Increasing healing requirements will make your progression experience more interesting, but not necessarily satisfy you when you're farming content. If a large portion of your toolkits is dedicated to defensive actions, then you'll never have a dps rotation that's going to provide the same level of engagement as an actual Caster. Utility actions like Expedient that can impact team performance/uptime are another question, but one that is largely unexplored. The question around whether resource management could be made more interesting is another. I think the problems run much deeper than just tank design.

[Supersnow845]

It’s not the actual suggestion being offered it’s the fact that when suggestions are offered it overwhelmingly doesn’t come from tanks because they are too busy being angry at WAR to realise the collective tank role is warping the entire trinity. Tanks never offer collective solutions to the role that focus on the fact that even the weakest tank is too strong

Tank sustain is intrinsically linked to healer design because for casual content tanks take near all the the non avoidable damage and they take most of the non avoidable damage in savage as well. There are entire portions and choices built into the healer kits that are not being taken advantage of because the tanks don’t need them. Solace is a near redundant button these days because rapture is just always the better choice

Sure damage options and bloat of oGCD’s are a contributing factor but overwhelmingly healer problems come from the fact that tanks are so overtuned that their single target kits are useless and everything has to be a body check to actually challenge the tanks near immortality so DPS health bars just become proxy’s for the tanks health bar……AND then they aren’t challenged either because damage is so consistent

Meanwhile people are arguing 1500 healer potency every 25 seconds on a free CD is fine because it’s worse in AOE

[Lyth]

I'm not blaming anyone. From experience, I have seen a trend of completely arbitrary gameplay changes implemented from cherrypicking random once off threads. You do have to explicitly step in and say 'this is just forum feelycraft, no active player on this job/role actually wants this' so that they get the picture, or else you wake up one day and you're Kaitenless. It's nothing personal.

I don't think that all tanks are overtuned. DRK's current design is probably closer to where everyone should be in terms of baseline sustain, even if I'm not a fan of the conditional magic-only damage reduction. I think mitigation inflation is a combined tank and healer problem, and unless you crop back on both roles' defensive kits you're not going to feel very challenged. I tend to agree with Rinon's take on this. I also think that if tanks and healers had less of their toolkits dedicated to defensives, you'd have more room for interesting rotations, but that's another story.

[Valence]

An idea I've been toying about when it comes to tank self sustain is to keep it because it's actually fun and gives a great feeling of tank power fantasy against the odds, but not give it freely on demand like it is right now. I like the DRK model for example where it's tied behind the invuln (which is busted granted). If suddenly all the self heals for example on WAR gets only unlocked when using an invuln (holmgang I guess?), you'd end up with something similar. Pushing the idea further, you could for example keep the invuln part of the ability like it is, or even reduce it to 4-6s for very targeted segments of an enemy attack (like the 4s of mitigation on all the signature defensives like bloodwhetting that we always forget about seeing they're the least impressive part of those). Added to that you could imagine a 15-20s of massive self healing or potent defensives like bloodwhetting and whatnot. Invulns would essentially shift to "last one standing" abilities that you can only use sparingly.

To give an idea, you could imagine it along those lines:

DRK: similar to now, invuln of X seconds, with its massive healing from damage done multiplicatively.
GNB: based on MNK's RoE in pvp, compile all the damage taken and heals for a % of it at the end or when the GNB presses the resolution button.
PLD: applies a holy shield equal to a % of the damage taken, and AoE heals around for an equal amount.
WAR: idk find something unique, perhaps with some damage counters: counters a % of the damage taken and AoE heals for the same amount?

It's just random ideas. Perhaps they're good, perhaps they're bad. But the idea is that you'd get that once or twice per raid, at best, then you're back to little self sustain, just your mitigators. So yeah i'd be okay with insane seal heals and similar cousins if they only happened every 6min or so.

[ty_taurus]

I would rather see it broken into one of two categories: healing that comes at an opportunity cost, and support that empowers the healers but cannot replace them.

With the former, an example of this would be Clemency. Being a GCD means Clemency comes at the cost of all other GCDs, and also consumes MP which is a part of Paladin's resource management. In solo, this provides a comfortable tool to sustain yourself, while in groups, it can be a tool for survival in a pinch. I don't think Clemency is perfect and there's more that could be done to make it feel more adequate, but conceptually I think the general niche it fills is fine.

For the later, I gave an example earlier of a reworked Divine Veil. Rather than do the healing for the healer, it grants a buff that adds more healing when each party member is healed. This would allow Paladin to provide help to healers in tight situations without doing their job for them. Other examples could include: Equilibrium increases how much HP is restored to Warrior when healed by 25%. Dark Knight could consume their HP and provide a barrier to themselves of value equal to the amount of HP consumed. This then allows healing the Dark Knight back up to provide more value through that barrier. Aurora could change to a field effect that logs a percentage of all HP restored to party members within the field, and when that hits a certain threshold based on a percentage of the Gunbreaker's max HP, dissipates and provides a barrier to the party equal to that value.

FOOTNOTE: Please note that the above suggestions are not mutually exclusive to any and all other changes that could be possibly be made.

[ASkellington]

I would rather see it broken into one of two categories: healing that comes at an opportunity cost, and support that empowers the healers but cannot replace them.

With the former, an example of this would be Clemency. Being a GCD means Clemency comes at the cost of all other GCDs, and also consumes MP which is a part of Paladin's resource management. In solo, this provides a comfortable tool to sustain yourself, while in groups, it can be a tool for survival in a pinch. I don't think Clemency is perfect and there's more that could be done to make it feel more adequate, but conceptually I think the general niche it fills is fine.

For the later, I gave an example earlier of a reworked Divine Veil. Rather than do the healing for the healer, it grants a buff that adds more healing when each party member is healed. This would allow Paladin to provide help to healers in tight situations without doing their job for them. Other examples could include: Equilibrium increases how much HP is restored to Warrior when healed by 25%. Dark Knight could consume their HP and provide a barrier to themselves of value equal to the amount of HP consumed. This then allows healing the Dark Knight back up to provide more value through that barrier. Aurora could change to a field effect that logs a percentage of all HP restored to party members within the field, and when that hits a certain threshold based on a percentage of the Gunbreaker's max HP, dissipates and provides a barrier to the party equal to that value.

FOOTNOTE: Please note that the above suggestions are not mutually exclusive to any and all other changes that could be possibly be made.

Aurora is fine on GNB. Even with 2 charges it doesn't heal enough by itself to be an issue for a healer. (it literally only replaces Regen/A. Benefic)

The issue with GNB is Heart of Corundum. The moment the GNB hits half health, they can hit the button and the heal is auto applied to them. Between that, plus two charges of Aurora and I believe its Brutal Shell's shield, GNB has pretty good survivability in a boss fight (W2W can be pretty dicey still). Enough so that I can solo a boss from 90-0 (haven't done 100 yet).

While I would be all for HoC to be tied to the Shell gauge... with the way SE wants the game I don't see it happening. And even then I see issues since Double Down costs 2. Rather, HoC should be more akin to TBN in that there is a set of damage that the GNB has to take first in order for the heal to be applied. This way they don't have a free recitation, they actually have to have the damage be applied first.

I would even suggest to take it a step further, as HoC has a short CD, that if the thresh hold isn't met (aka you use it willy nilly) the recast timer is lengthened. Rewarding good gameplay with said shorter CD.

I dunno. I don't see Aurora as a problem.