Feelings on FF14's Trinity System?

[ty_taurus]

I dunno. I don't see Aurora as a problem.

I wasn't specifically trying to target the biggest offenders of each tank in this particular example. I wanted to use Aurora as an example because I think it would be so much more interesting if it actually created an Aurora on the battlefield that provided some time of effect during its duration. An effect that generates a limited barrier based on the healing provided by the healers just sounded like an interesting direction for that effect.

Like I pointed out in the footnote, those particular suggestions are not mutually exclusive to any and all other specific changes that could potentially occur. So that could also be in conjunction with a Heart of Corundum rework.

[ASkellington]

I wasn't specifically trying to target the biggest offenders of each tank in this particular example. I wanted to use Aurora as an example because I think it would be so much more interesting if it actually created an Aurora on the battlefield that provided some time of effect during its duration. An effect that generates a limited barrier based on the healing provided by the healers just sounded like an interesting direction for that effect.

Like I pointed out in the footnote, those particular suggestions are not mutually exclusive to any and all other specific changes that could potentially occur. So that could also be in conjunction with a Heart of Corundum rework.

I'll disagree to the change to Aurora to be interesting. I'd personally find it to be more cumbersome than anything. And even if I didn't, it doesn't make sense for a HoT to now become an AoE build up barrier. That seems better suited to Heart of Light.

[ty_taurus]

I'll disagree to the change to Aurora to be interesting. I'd personally find it to be more cumbersome than anything. And even if I didn't, it doesn't make sense for a HoT to now become an AoE build up barrier. That seems better suited to Heart of Light.

Are you saying that Aurora would not be more interesting if the visual effect were an actual aurora on the battlefield vs a sparkly Cure-looking effect? Or are you commenting on the idea of an effect that stores a percentage of healing received and turning that into a barrier is not more interesting? Because if it's the later, do note that these are simply examples that I was sharing to communicate an idea and do not need to be interpreted as definitively unchanging suggestions that must exist as they are written or the entire concept completely falls apart.

Also, reworked actions aren't things that need to be physically changed. It's not like you're manually changing what a coffee machine is to what a washing machine is where there is virtually nothing the two machines have in common and thus defeats the purpose of trying to repurposing an existing item in the first place. So while it might, in a real-world setting, be a lot easier to repurpose something to have a function that compliments the original design in some capacity... For example, cutting up an old shower curtain into a smock you can wear while painting your bathroom... It doesn't really matter what Aurora was vs what it can be changed into because what's being changed is data.

But regardless, I think you're missing the point of what I was saying anyway. I was talking about breaking down Tank sustain into two categories, so I don't really understand why we're scrutinizing a particular example, which is exactly that--an example, rather than talking about the concept.

[Supersnow845]

I just think in general incidental healing shouldn’t be the purview of tanks (PLD kinda gets a partial pass as it’s a holy knight)

Why not (using an incredibly simple example) that bloodwhetting rather than triggering heals did something like if you hit 4 GCD’s under it (or used a specific GCD under it) it procced like an extra 20 seconds of 10% mitigation or 20 seconds of 10% HP up

The bigger problem with tank heals is not so much they have them it’s the fact they are overwhelmingly incidental, equilibrium and aurora are straight up just free healer heals and SIO is stronger than any single healer heal in the game

Ironically clemency is actually the best designed tank heal

[ASkellington]

I just think in general incidental healing shouldn’t be the purview of tanks (PLD kinda gets a partial pass as it’s a holy knight)

Why not (using an incredibly simple example) that bloodwhetting rather than triggering heals did something like if you hit 4 GCD’s under it (or used a specific GCD under it) it procced like an extra 20 seconds of 10% mitigation or 20 seconds of 10% HP up

The bigger problem with tank heals is not so much they have them it’s the fact they are overwhelmingly incidental, equilibrium and aurora are straight up just free healer heals and SIO is stronger than any single healer heal in the game

Ironically clemency is actually the best designed tank heal

You're gonna have to explain "incidental" in this context.

I'm assuming based on your post you mean "free of cost".

Regardless, I don't exactly agree... I don't disagree either. I suppose the best way of putting it is - I wouldn't care if there was enough damage out there to warrant the healing, free or not, on a tank. Or a DPS for that matter. Encounter design sadly doesn't support it.

[Supersnow845]

You're gonna have to explain "incidental" in this context.

I'm assuming based on your post you mean "free of cost".

Regardless, I don't exactly agree... I don't disagree either. I suppose the best way of putting it is - I wouldn't care if there was enough damage out there to warrant the healing, free or not, on a tank. Or a DPS for that matter. Encounter design sadly doesn't support it.

Not so much free more so besides Aurora and equilibrium almost all tank healing comes from pressing buttons they were already going to press at near the same time

Let’s say we removed the heal off bloodwhetting, HOC, HS and the rotational heals (including PLD’s magic healing), near nothing about when they press these buttons will actually change, it’s just now you press the same buttons and get massive amounts of healing out of it. Think of heart of stone or Shelton, they provided mitigation but not healing, you still pressed them in roughly the same places you pressed holy Shelton and HOC but now you get free healing out of it

Tank healing should either have to be planned or come at a cost. Clemency is the big example however old nascent flash is a different type of design you could look into, what if nascent flash only healed you if you used a nascent chaos skill under it but always provides the mitigation no matter when you pressed it

[ASkellington]

Not so much free more so besides Aurora and equilibrium almost all tank healing comes from pressing buttons they were already going to press at near the same time

Let’s say we removed the heal off bloodwhetting, HOC, HS and the rotational heals (including PLD’s magic healing), near nothing about when they press these buttons will actually change, it’s just now you press the same buttons and get massive amounts of healing out of it. Think of heart of stone or Shelton, they provided mitigation but not healing, you still pressed them in roughly the same places you pressed holy Shelton and HOC but now you get free healing out of it

Tank healing should either have to be planned or come at a cost. Clemency is the big example however old nascent flash is a different type of design you could look into, what if nascent flash only healed you if you used a nascent chaos skill under it but always provides the mitigation no matter when you pressed it

I mean, personally I'd take it a step further, in that you'd need to use a resource to get both, but depending on how its done I can see... some issues.

I mention HoC with the Shell gauge as an example that could be problematic for instance. But the idea isn't a bad one I don't think as long as its the heal alone.

Though... I do worry about the... "ease of access". For example, if you need the heal, but you don't have access to a nascent chaos ability to proc. I suppose it would be a decent skill expression though. To work for a heal.

Aurora I'm not sure about though. Imo its too weak and to me it supports the healer well enough. Could probably just drop the charge back to 1 or leave it.

[Supersnow845]

I mean, personally I'd take it a step further, in that you'd need to use a resource to get both, but depending on how its done I can see... some issues.

I mention HoC with the Shell gauge as an example that could be problematic for instance. But the idea isn't a bad one I don't think as long as its the heal alone.

Though... I do worry about the... "ease of access". For example, if you need the heal, but you don't have access to a nascent chaos ability to proc. I suppose it would be a decent skill expression though. To work for a heal.

Aurora I'm not sure about though. Imo its too weak and to me it supports the healer well enough. Could probably just drop the charge back to 1 or leave it.

That’s why in previous posts I’ve discussed the return of active or GCD mitigation

If we applied my random example proposal to nascent flash and then suddenly you need to “heal” but don’t have access to nascent chaos at the time you can drop damage to apply a GCD mitigation to achieve functionally the same thing

Expression comes from using your limited healing to reduce your GCD mitigation load, similar to how the healers work outside of their god awful damage rotation because I think most people agree the healing side of healers is more interesting than the tanking side of tanks

[Oizen]

I just think in general incidental healing shouldn’t be the purview of tanks (PLD kinda gets a partial pass as it’s a holy knight)

Why not (using an incredibly simple example) that bloodwhetting rather than triggering heals did something like if you hit 4 GCD’s under it (or used a specific GCD under it) it procced like an extra 20 seconds of 10% mitigation or 20 seconds of 10% HP up

The bigger problem with tank heals is not so much they have them it’s the fact they are overwhelmingly incidental, equilibrium and aurora are straight up just free healer heals and SIO is stronger than any single healer heal in the game

Ironically clemency is actually the best designed tank heal

I think Heart of Corundum is fairly well designed as a tank heal, Its buff being fairly long means you can't really spam it on CD and expect it to work. It wont save you from lethal hits, but its a pretty powerful heal if you do it right.

Then they stopped trying when they made Holy Sheltron and Bloodwhetting

[ASkellington]

I think Heart of Corundum is fairly well designed as a tank heal, Its buff being fairly long means you can't really spam it on CD and expect it to work. It wont save you from lethal hits, but its a pretty powerful heal if you do it right.

Then they stopped trying when they made Holy Sheltron and Bloodwhetting

HoC's flaw is that its a recitation when it shouldn't be. It should require damage being taken before the heal is applied, not when the tank drops below 50%. As Lyth pointed out here:

I agree with Snow's point about tank healing being too passive, but I do think there are other approaches. A really easy way of doing this is having a healing effect scale on the amount of damage taken recently, or based off of how low your HP is (i.e. a Minus Strike type effect). This way, you have negligible healing under normal circumstances, unless you've specifically timed the move against a big damage strike. And I think that timing should always be central to tank defensives, and giving tanks lots of reactive healing solutions to compensate for a lack of anticipation doesn't really fit the role.

Clemency in it's current state is fine (mp being something PLD uses for their damage).

Where it gets dicey is in other heals a tank has.

Abyssal Drain for instance. Its on a 60s CD and is already relegated to mostly trash use, as in single target damage its for the most part worthless over Carve. That it shares a recast with Carve isn't a bad idea - to make you choose over more MP or more HP, but if the HP gain is worthless in boss situations and the MP gain isn't exactly worth using in trash... (and AD gives MP anyroad).

You could make a neater split - AD gives HP only (and make it more worth while in single target) and CaS can now affect other enemies at 50% less damage while restoring MP. This way it presents a choice and is no longer "free".

Holy Shelltron... maybe give the above damage applied = extra heal potency.

Equilibrium I don't know why it exists currently. SiO make sense - aoe defensive w/ extra healing (that we don't need but the defensive makes sense). Bloodwhetting/Nascent Flash also makes sense if I ignore my bias over it should be a DRK thing and not a WAR one. Its underneath the idea of "too angry to die" berserker motif.

Maybe it should share a recast timer with something like NF=BW or CaS=AD. Where you can get that heal but at the cost of something else.