Feature Request/Suggestion - English (JP) Language option in Launcher

[PorxiesRCute]

I agree that Haurchefant shouldn't have been censored, but that had nothing to do with any fans "shrieking". It was translators observing that certain media tropes come across differently in different cultures. And the example with Wind-up Moenbryda is, like, the exact opposite of "socially progressive people shrieking"; it was a dumb masturbation joke that never should have been made.

But you know what, you've convinced me. I'm now 100% in favor of a faithful non-localized subtitle option, just so all the Gamers can finally see that there's no "SJW censorship" ruining their Pure Ideal Nihongo Story.

[Telkira]

I agree that Haurchefant shouldn't have been censored, but that had nothing to do with any fans "shrieking". It was translators observing that certain media tropes come across differently in different cultures.

I'm glad that you agree that it shouldn't have been censored, but if you pay attention to the discourse that happened regarding that, many people argued that his character was 'creepy' and needed to be censored, while completely ignoring that doing so would be logically incompatible with respecting foreign culture, which the game objectively is a product of since his character is not seen as problematic in Japan. Literally just a comedic trope that has existed for decades.

I blame most of the outcry on a lack of critical thinking and media literacy, but there were too many people who did have these skills, but didn't care because it offended them, so they celebrated the change.

And the example with Wind-up Moenbryda is, like, the exact opposite of "socially progressive people shrieking"; it was a dumb masturbation joke that never should have been made.

I could play devil's advocate and argue that the perception of it being perceived as a sex joke was just a lousy interpretation of the Japanese text's reference to 'unresolved feelings', but it clearly was just an example of liberties being taken too far.
Had they simply just translated it the original content, then no issue could have been able to arise.

The pendulum of cultural revisionism swings both ways, but I argue that it shouldn't swing at all, at least without a faithful alternative.

[PorxiesRCute]

I'm glad that you agree that it shouldn't have been censored, but if you pay attention to the discourse that happened regarding that, many people argued that his character was 'creepy' and needed to be censored, while completely ignoring that doing so would be logically incompatible with respecting foreign culture, which the game objectively is a product of since his character is not seen as problematic in Japan. Literally just a comedic trope that has existed for decades.

I blame most of the outcry on a lack of critical thinking and media literacy, but there were too many people who did have these skills, but didn't care because it offended them, so they celebrated the change.

You have maybe half a point here; people did say "he was creepy in Japanese so it's good he was changed". But it's really interesting that you immediately leap to thinking it's because those people were offended. Is it not equally possible that, if he came across as a creep in English, people would simply find his heroic sacrifice less moving, and thus they think it's a better storytelling decision?

[Telkira]

You have maybe half a point here; people did say "he was creepy in Japanese so it's good he was changed". But it's really interesting that you immediately leap to thinking it's because those people were offended.

I suppose it's not impossible for some Japanese audiences to feel uncomfortable with him, but based on how popular he is in the JP fanbase (see the FFXIV stickers for the messaging app LINE, which depicts him as a debauchee), it's safe to assume that he was popular as he was.

Is it not equally possible that, if he came across as a creep in English, people would simply find his heroic sacrifice less moving, and thus they think it's a better storytelling decision?

I don't think so, honestly. Most of the people who went so far as to call him a creep or a sexpest were an outspoken minority that many other players called out as overdramatic or emotional.
His sexual advances and comments were never intended to be, nor were they received by the majority of the playerbase (who saw the YT vids comparing him) as anything but comedic.
Many people (myself included) found it welcoming, since this made it feel more like a comedy bit from an anime and I thought it was a nice change of pace, considering the drollness of the setting.

None of that detracted from his characterization or his actions, and I would argue that the storytelling component of his rewrite was unfulfilled. It might've worked for some people, but not for me.

Keep in mind, even though I played with JP cutscenes/audio, I could tell that there was a discrepancy because some of his spoken Japanese was not aligning at all with what was appearing in the textbox, and it even went further because I could tell that something was missing.

I personally found his re-write to be uncomfortable. Not because I was put off by his revised dialog, but because it felt like there should have been more to his function as a character at that point in the story and within that droll and dreary setting. Even with the localized English text, it felt like something was missing, and when I inevitably found those aforementioned comparison vids on YT (with the text translated), it suddenly made sense.

[PorxiesRCute]

I don't think so, honestly. Most of the people who went so far as to call him a creep or a sexpest were an outspoken minority that many other players called out as overdramatic or emotional.

To be clear (since I see now that my wording was awkward) I was specifically referring to the people who thought he was a creep or a sexpest in Japanese. I'm saying that there's an option besides them being "offended" by his behavior. Because I prefer not to automatically jump to the worst possible interpretation of people.

[Telkira]

To be clear (since I see now that my wording was awkward) I was specifically referring to the people who thought he was a creep or a sexpest in Japanese. I'm saying that there's an option besides them being "offended" by his behavior. Because I prefer not to automatically jump to the worst possible interpretation of people.

ohhh okay. my apologies for misreading what it was you were trying to say before.

See, it really doesn't change what I said before, because people were still offended.

I don't think those matter all that much because a localizer's job shouldn't be to re-invent the narrative, only adapt it in a way that's more familiar to the target demographic. But because localization (as opposed to translation) inherently demands some degree of substantial revision, I don't think adhering to principles of consistency are as imperative as they should be.

And honestly, it shouldn't matter whether people agree or disagree with his re-write for story reasons because it's not what he was originally written as, and he was changed to avoid upsetting fans. It's not the same dialog, nor is it in-step with what the original writers has intended when they wrote him, so as far as I'm concerned, it's not the real Haurchefant that you're seeing, and the reactions/interactions surrounding him are inauthentic.

Many people in the West believed that it was better, but a lot of others vehemently disagreed. They shared my position on him and his purpose in the overall narrative, his role as a comic relief, and more importantly, his role as a friend to the main character were harmed by this re-write.

What happened with Haurchefant created an egregious disparity between the game's contents across languages, creating discomfort among fans who may feel that they are being deprived of something that other languages have, or might argue over what the definitive narrative may be, in addition to drastically changing how certain regions perceive things.

They want what the original Japanese artists and writers made, because ultimately it's their art that they're consuming. Not some middle-man's reinterpretation of its content. If the game were faithfully translated, without the unnecessary revisions and fluff, then it would still have it's mass appeal all the same.

[SannaR]

Many people in the West believed that it was better, but a lot of others vehemently disagreed. They shared my position on him and his purpose in the overall narrative, his role as a comic relief, and more importantly, his role as a friend to the main character were harmed by this re-write.

What happened with Haurchefant created an egregious disparity between the game's contents across languages, creating discomfort among fans who may feel that they are being deprived of something that other languages have, or might argue over what the definitive narrative may be, in addition to drastically changing how certain regions perceive things.

They want what the original Japanese artists and writers made, because ultimately it's their art that they're consuming. Not some middle-man's reinterpretation of its content. If the game were faithfully translated, without the unnecessary revisions and fluff, then it would still have it's mass appeal all the same.

First Koji and Kate aren't two random middle-men. They work directly with Oda-san and with the other localization teams. All of them bouncing ideas off each other and asking the other teams if things still make sense for the idea or concept that they want to get across if they use a different wordage. Second they both have explained in detail how more than once how this process is done and that there are times when these things are initiated from the English side and then have to be worked out to make sense in Japanese.

Haurchefant is still "lewd" in the English version. He is just more subtle about it than the other languages. Even from what was a lot of players 1st encounter with him from the 2014 Heavensturn that if the WoL was a horse they would be a horse he'd love to ride. Something that most tend to read as wanting to do said riding in a sexual manner. He is still "lewd" and suggestive in the English version he just is more subtle about wanting to drag the WoL off to his bed chambers for some anatomy studies for solely "art" purposes or whatever excuse he'd come up with than be blunt as hell about it all. He still does a fine job of showing his friendship and caring about the WoL in the English version. His officers are still worried he will end up creating a groove in the floor from all of the pacing he is doing while we are off dealing with Yasale as Shiva. Or that he praises Halone that you and your very athletic body hasn't been marred by the Vanu Vanu when he comes to the rescue of you and Emmanellain. Ready to fight to the last man until its made clear the Vanu Vanu mean to cause you to fall off the side of the island so that you can be eaten by Bismarck.