Feature Request/Suggestion - English (JP) Language option in Launcher

[Telkira]

To be clear (since I see now that my wording was awkward) I was specifically referring to the people who thought he was a creep or a sexpest in Japanese. I'm saying that there's an option besides them being "offended" by his behavior. Because I prefer not to automatically jump to the worst possible interpretation of people.

ohhh okay. my apologies for misreading what it was you were trying to say before.

See, it really doesn't change what I said before, because people were still offended.

I don't think those matter all that much because a localizer's job shouldn't be to re-invent the narrative, only adapt it in a way that's more familiar to the target demographic. But because localization (as opposed to translation) inherently demands some degree of substantial revision, I don't think adhering to principles of consistency are as imperative as they should be.

And honestly, it shouldn't matter whether people agree or disagree with his re-write for story reasons because it's not what he was originally written as, and he was changed to avoid upsetting fans. It's not the same dialog, nor is it in-step with what the original writers has intended when they wrote him, so as far as I'm concerned, it's not the real Haurchefant that you're seeing, and the reactions/interactions surrounding him are inauthentic.

Many people in the West believed that it was better, but a lot of others vehemently disagreed. They shared my position on him and his purpose in the overall narrative, his role as a comic relief, and more importantly, his role as a friend to the main character were harmed by this re-write.

What happened with Haurchefant created an egregious disparity between the game's contents across languages, creating discomfort among fans who may feel that they are being deprived of something that other languages have, or might argue over what the definitive narrative may be, in addition to drastically changing how certain regions perceive things.

They want what the original Japanese artists and writers made, because ultimately it's their art that they're consuming. Not some middle-man's reinterpretation of its content. If the game were faithfully translated, without the unnecessary revisions and fluff, then it would still have it's mass appeal all the same.

[SannaR]

Many people in the West believed that it was better, but a lot of others vehemently disagreed. They shared my position on him and his purpose in the overall narrative, his role as a comic relief, and more importantly, his role as a friend to the main character were harmed by this re-write.

What happened with Haurchefant created an egregious disparity between the game's contents across languages, creating discomfort among fans who may feel that they are being deprived of something that other languages have, or might argue over what the definitive narrative may be, in addition to drastically changing how certain regions perceive things.

They want what the original Japanese artists and writers made, because ultimately it's their art that they're consuming. Not some middle-man's reinterpretation of its content. If the game were faithfully translated, without the unnecessary revisions and fluff, then it would still have it's mass appeal all the same.

First Koji and Kate aren't two random middle-men. They work directly with Oda-san and with the other localization teams. All of them bouncing ideas off each other and asking the other teams if things still make sense for the idea or concept that they want to get across if they use a different wordage. Second they both have explained in detail how more than once how this process is done and that there are times when these things are initiated from the English side and then have to be worked out to make sense in Japanese.

Haurchefant is still "lewd" in the English version. He is just more subtle about it than the other languages. Even from what was a lot of players 1st encounter with him from the 2014 Heavensturn that if the WoL was a horse they would be a horse he'd love to ride. Something that most tend to read as wanting to do said riding in a sexual manner. He is still "lewd" and suggestive in the English version he just is more subtle about wanting to drag the WoL off to his bed chambers for some anatomy studies for solely "art" purposes or whatever excuse he'd come up with than be blunt as hell about it all. He still does a fine job of showing his friendship and caring about the WoL in the English version. His officers are still worried he will end up creating a groove in the floor from all of the pacing he is doing while we are off dealing with Yasale as Shiva. Or that he praises Halone that you and your very athletic body hasn't been marred by the Vanu Vanu when he comes to the rescue of you and Emmanellain. Ready to fight to the last man until its made clear the Vanu Vanu mean to cause you to fall off the side of the island so that you can be eaten by Bismarck.

[Telkira]

First Koji and Kate aren't two random middle-men. They work directly with Oda-san and with the other localization teams. All of them bouncing ideas off each other and asking the other teams if things still make sense for the idea or concept that they want to get across if they use a different wordage. Second they both have explained in detail how more than once how this process is done and that there are times when these things are initiated from the English side and then have to be worked out to make sense in Japanese.

First, when I said 'middle-man' I was speaking generally about the adaptation of Japanese games as a whole. When things are re-written or revised by localizers in ways that contradict or 'invent' things that were not said by the original writers, it creates content disparities between parties that should not exist.

Second, I've seen their explanations of the process, and none of it detracts from, or is incompatible with giving us what is, in essence, a translation of the Japanese translation.
In one of the more recent fanfests, both Koji and Kate explain the process and most of it comes straight from the Japanese writers and has to be adapted by the Localization team, with their own individual processes, with a final series of checks done by all parties before it goes before implementation. I've posted about it earlier in the thread, please go watch/read it.

The Localizers, especially Koji and Kate, are (or were, in Koji Fox's case) not as involved with the conceptualization and writing process as you may believe. If anything, they seem to care more about voice direction than anything else.
True, they help spitball ideas and come up with a few things here and there, but the brunt of the game's narrative, characterization, world-building, and other contents are done primarily by Oda-san and his team. There's a quantitative disparity which a lot of people who find no issue with the localization or want to defend it from criticism seem to overlook or discard when these issues are brought up.

Haurchefant is still "lewd" in the English version. He is just more subtle about it than the other languages...He is still "lewd" and suggestive in the English version he just is more subtle about wanting to drag the WoL off to his bed chambers for some anatomy studies for solely "art" purposes or whatever excuse he'd come up with than be blunt as hell about it all. He still does a fine job of showing his friendship and caring about the WoL in the English version.

A little 'too' subtle, for my tastes, and those of others who felt that this watered-down and softened revision of his characterization did no justice to him overall. But all of that still goes deep into my point about how something was missing, particularly from his dialog. It felt like his character was intended to be ignored or overlooked by the localizers.

And no, he doesn't, because a lot of what he said (in my opinion, at least) in the English version felt like he had something that was missing. Without the overt but comedic sexual expressions, it felt like he was more GENUINELY interested in sex with my character than a comedic trope that could have been interpreted properly. They ruined him in English.

[SannaR]

A little 'too' subtle, for my tastes, and those of others who felt that this watered-down and softened revision of his characterization did no justice to him overall. But all of that still goes deep into my point about how something was missing, particularly from his dialog. It felt like his character was intended to be ignored or overlooked by the localizers.

And no, he doesn't, because a lot of what he said (in my opinion, at least) in the English version felt like he had something that was missing. Without the overt but comedic sexual expressions, it felt like he was more GENUINELY interested in sex with my character than a comedic trope that could have been interpreted properly. They ruined him in English.

I don't think Haurchefant was ever meant to be comedic. The character archetype his appreciation of an athletic body is normally played for laughs, but as I said I don't think he was meant to be seen that way. I feel how he is animated more in the other three languages is meant to show off his enthusiasm. How spirited he is. I do feel that they could have made his friendship with the WoL more apparent. I'm not sure if his appreciation of the athletic body type needs to be improved as we already can see how many react to a much stronger version of that with Gegeruju. Where he is seen as of putting, creepy or uncomfortable. Knowing that the character archetype that part of him is supposed to be like tends to be worse than how Gegeruju already is makes me feel glad we didn't get that. Did they have to go as far as they did as some kind of course correction? Probably not. After all he's meant to be seen as a valiant knight that people like Laniaitte doesn't want to deal with unlike how she acts around Emmanellain.

[Telkira]

I don't think Haurchefant was ever meant to be comedic.

He was intended to be that way in Japanese.
His personality type was the harmless debauchee, all of his sexualized interactions with the player is meant to be humorous. The tone of each interaction noticeably shifts to be more light-hearted, which compliments his other interactions with the player and makes him stand out more as a character.

I'm very upset that we didn't get that from him because his entire character in English felt incomplete and forced. I didn't need a character that my character didn't have very many intimate or emotional moments with prior to that acting so concerned with my well-being, and it made me wonder if there was a Localization failure. Maybe if that whole segment were re-written to be more in-line with that type of characterization across the board, then things might not have felt so awkward, but that's my opinion on the matter.

They ruined Haurchefant, and I think the misfire of that is probably the strongest argument for why a second EN translation should be implemented. I've even said before that if the localizers didn't acknowledge their mistake with how they handled him and apologize for, in their own words, depriving us of a memorable character, I think I would have dropped my sub long ago.

[SannaR]

He was intended to be that way in Japanese.
His personality type was the harmless debauchee, all of his sexualized interactions with the player is meant to be humorous. The tone of each interaction noticeably shifts to be more light-hearted, which compliments his other interactions with the player and makes him stand out more as a character.

I'm very upset that we didn't get that from him because his entire character in English felt incomplete and forced. I didn't need a character that my character didn't have very many intimate or emotional moments with prior to that acting so concerned with my well-being, and it made me wonder if there was a Localization failure. Maybe if that whole segment were re-written to be more in-line with that type of characterization across the board, then things might not have felt so awkward, but that's my opinion on the matter.

They ruined Haurchefant, and I think the misfire of that is probably the strongest argument for why a second EN translation should be implemented. I've even said before that if the localizers didn't acknowledge their mistake with how they handled him and apologize for, in their own words, depriving us of a memorable character, I think I would have dropped my sub long ago.

I still have a lot of doubts that even in the other languages he was meant to be seen as comedic. As they tend to make such characters fairly obvious. Emmanellain, Gegeruju, Hildibrand, and Beatin the carpenters' guild master are all meant to be seen as joke characters. Meanwhile Haurchefant is taken as a serious character that has a flaw of having innuendos about how much he enjoys looking at sweaty bodies or an athletic physique in general. The same way that Beatin when he talks about wood has people in need of reminding themselves that he isn't openly talking about things a person might enjoy doing to various parts of a lover's body. That even tho I also feel his subtle suggestions is tame I'm sort of glad he isn't dialed up to where he is in the other languages as this dev team has a hard time finding a middle ground. As they either go with being very subtle about something or they choose the hit you in the head with a brick approach and for me that would put him on par with Gegeruju when it comes to his proclivities about enjoying finely muscled bodies pertaining to how healthy a person is.

[Telkira]

I still have a lot of doubts that even in the other languages he was meant to be seen as comedic. As they tend to make such characters fairly obvious. Emmanellain, Gegeruju, Hildibrand, and Beatin the carpenters' guild master are all meant to be seen as joke characters. Meanwhile Haurchefant is taken as a serious character that has a flaw of having innuendos about how much he enjoys looking at sweaty bodies or an athletic physique in general.

I think you misinterpret Haurchefant in relation to Emmanellain, Gegeruju, and especially Hildibrand. Yes, those three are particularly designed to be comedic, but Haurchefant fulfills both a serious role while also retaining those particular aspects of his personality.
Weakening those aspects of his characterization, as opposed to the other three (which Hildibrand barely has) undermines his characterization in the other three characterizations because it creates a noticeable hole in how others react to him in-game.

And even then - I'm not talking about the other three languages, I'm talking specifically about the Japanese script and how he was improperly adapted, with noticeable deviations from how he was originally intended to be received - his canon character.

The same way that Beatin when he talks about wood has people in need of reminding themselves that he isn't openly talking about things a person might enjoy doing to various parts of a lover's body. That even tho I also feel his subtle suggestions is tame I'm sort of glad he isn't dialed up to where he is in the other languages as this dev team has a hard time finding a middle ground.

It sounds to me like you're trying to validate what you believe are your own preferences for what was an egregious and unjustifiable act of censorship on the part of the devs, rather than accept that certain principles were flagrantly violated. Haurchefant should have been as far into that realm as he could have faithfully been, because that's simply what he was.

Whether or not you feel that this revision of his character was better should be irrelevant, as they still toned him down and created tonal discrepancies that had to be shoehorned or outright ignored by other NPCs in ways that didn't logically make sense.

If he wasn't subtle in Japanese, then he shouldn't be subtle in other languages. Translation and faithful, consistent adaptations and translations are what they should have gone with.