Feature Request/Suggestion - English (JP) Language option in Launcher

[Telkira]

So learn Japanese.

If learning a whole language were more feasible than adding a separate language option that's more in-line and faithful to the canon content, I wouldn't have made this post. What's wrong with accommodating players who like the game, its lore, characters, etc. but not the unnecessary flavor and revisionism that comes with the EN localization? That's like telling people who don't like English dubs of anime to learn Japanese because English voiceovers don't mesh well with Japanese animation and writing. JRPGs are no different.

Why is it only English speakers who have this kind of entitlement? Native Spanish speakers, Portuguese speakers, Chinese speakers outside of China, Russians, Ukrainians, speakers of every other European language besides French/German/English, Arabic speakers, Africans, etc etc etc. play this game in their second and third languages every single day.

I would love it if the game were translated into all of these languages! What are you talking about?
And a lot of the revisionism you see in the EN copy of the game simply isn't present in the German and French versions, which are more or less faithfully translated from the JP script, not fully but mostly, with none of the unnecessary fluff you see in the EN script.

What I want is for the EN script to be treated like the French or German scripts.

I don't think the answer is to create an entirely additional translation that attempts to be direct. Not only is that a massive undertaking, but in many cases there simply isn't a 1-to-1 translation because that's how complex and varied different languages are. Which is the entire reason why localization exists in the first place.

I think the optimal way forward is just to express to CBU3 and the localization team that players (however may of us are in this camp) appreciate a translation that takes as few liberties as possible. Not only has the localization team demonstrated that they are capable of moving closer to this, but it's by far the solution that you're most likely to get CBU3 to agree to.

I think it's more feasible than people realize, since a lot of the work that goes into it has already been done, it just needs to be tested and implemented. There are a lot of issues with localization over translating, in that liberties are often taken where they shouldn't be which is tantamount to revisionism. FFXIV, first and foremost, is a Japanese game, written, developed, and designed for the Japanese market. There are all sorts of cultural nuances that go into that, you can't just give all the characters 'ye olde english' accents and staff English VAs and expect that to hide the fact that you're playing a JRPG.
A lot of it just doesn't flow, so the Localizers take lots of creative liberties that many players (such as myself) find unnecessary or even offensive, such as re-writing a whole character because they don't want to offend more sensitive players. That is literally censorship, and I don't trust localizers to strike a healthy balance between ensuring that the vision is faithfully carried over without allowing their own biases and prejudices to corrupt the vision.

Localization is, first and foremost, a business decision. Not an artistic one. It forces concepts like literary or artistic integrity to take a back seat to a flawed, biased perception that keeping in-line with the original vision will harm its marketability, when in reality, those who are playing it wouldn't mind because they're primarily playing it for the content itself.

[LilimoLimomo]

Localization is, first and foremost, a business decision. Not an artistic one. It forces concepts like literary or artistic integrity to take a back seat to a flawed, biased perception that keeping in-line with the original vision will harm its marketability, when in reality, those who are playing it wouldn't mind because they're primarily playing it for the content itself.

If I were someone at Square-Enix who had the power to change how localization was done, I'd want to see some kind of research or statistical data to back up these claims. It's all too common for an individual to hop on a forum and announce that your average customer wants X, when in fact they've just assumed that other people align with their own preferences. For change to occur, they'll need to see something that convinces them that a pivot will improve their profits. That could be research data, it could be an outpouring of support for this claim on the forums, etc. But without something that feels tangible, they're unlikely to change direction or add new features.

If I were a gambling Lalafell, I'd place my money on Square-Enix having done some due diligence on the topics of translation and localization over their many years of offering goods and services across the globe; when there's money to be made, most multi-national corporations aren't simply winging it, and localization is a long-established concept that will have a measurable track record.

Regardless, with your interest in translation and localization, I bet you'd be interested in this story: https://www.polygon.com/2019/7/18/20...remy-blaustein

[Telkira]

If I were someone at Square-Enix who had the power to change how localization was done, I'd want to see some kind of research or statistical data to back up these claims. It's all too common for an individual to hop on a forum and announce that your average customer wants X, when in fact they've just assumed that other people align with their own preferences. For change to occur, they'll need to see something that convinces them that a pivot will improve their profits. That could be research data, it could be an outpouring of support for this claim on the forums, etc. But without something that feels tangible, they're unlikely to change direction or add new features.

I don't see how pivoting towards content parity between languages would harm their bottom line, nor do I see how implementing a secondary English language option that is simply a faithful translation of the JP script and devoid of all the fluff and revisions made by the localizers would make the game any less harmful.
I'd even (re)assert that the entire model of 'localizing' is built on a set of assumptions which are biased or fallacious. If a title is so unfit to be sold in a foreign market that it needs to be egregiously altered just to appease cultural sensibilities, then it probably shouldn't be sold in said market, but made available to those willing and able to partake via translating it, and nothing more.

Genuinely, if characters like Haurchefant were to have been released in all languages as he does in the JP script, there wouldn't be any backlash. People might express distaste, but certainly not anything more than the inclusion of Lalafells in the game already has, and continues to do so, with arguments about how the game itself sexualizes them, as they are adults.
I mentioned how the German and French audiences seem to be largely unaffected by this, considering how those scripts are largely consistent with the JP script.

If I were a gambling Lalafell, I'd place my money on Square-Enix having done some due diligence on the topics of translation and localization over their many years of offering goods and services across the globe; when there's money to be made, most multi-national corporations aren't simply winging it, and localization is a long-established concept that will have a measurable track record.

Regardless, with your interest in translation and localization, I bet you'd be interested in this story: https://www.polygon.com/2019/7/18/20...remy-blaustein

I think you're giving SE too much credit. I looked into the history of SE's approach to dealing with foreign markets and specifically with FFXI and FFXIV, much of the localization lead's (Koji Fox) positions were "the Japanese script is boring. What if I added this?" but going too far in the realm of content revisionism, to the point where whole dialog trees were being changed and characterization itself was being altered. You shouldn't want that, otherwise, why even bother allowing different regions to play together? Why not segregate/region lock since they'd be playing different stories?
One of the worst localizations I've ever seen was the recent Elyuden Chronicle game, and seeing discrepancies as egregious as those are in FFXIV genuinely makes me not want to play anymore.

[LilimoLimomo]

I don't see how pivoting towards content parity between languages would harm their bottom line

Adding what is in effect a new language to the game takes work that costs money, both for initially adding as well as updating over time.

If a title is so unfit to be sold in a foreign market that it needs to be egregiously altered just to appease cultural sensibilities, then it probably shouldn't be sold in said market

You aren't thinking like a business here. The question isn't one of moral or artistic sensibilities, it is as simple as "will this get us more money?" By adding a new market to sell your wares in and making your product accessible to that market, you add an additional source of income for your product.

If you want a financially motivated entity to make a change that you want, you need to be able to speak their language: the language of money.

[Telkira]

This game has never promised to have a "faithful translation", there are only localisations, the $14 USD/mo is providing you the localisation, making another version would obviously costs more than what they are doing.

Adding what is in effect a new language to the game takes work that costs money, both for initially adding as well as updating over time.
You aren't thinking like a business here. The question isn't one of moral or artistic sensibilities, it is as simple as "will this get us more money?" By adding a new market to sell your wares in and making your product accessible to that market, you add an additional source of income for your product.

If you want a financially motivated entity to make a change that you want, you need to be able to speak their language: the language of money.

I don't think that adding a second English language option would really drive into any expenses. The EN localization team has been very transparent at Fanfests, in blogs, interviews, etc. exactly how their process goes, and believe me when I say it, much of the work for what I'm suggesting has already been done.

More work has to be done in choosing what to revise/rewrite to make it more consistent with what they've already done, arguably, localization is more expensive than faithfully translating, which explains why the German and French languages are more consistent with the Japanese script and face far less revisions, and what revisions are there are less egregious, and having what is basically just an English translation of the canon script might be helpful for ensuring that such contents are accurately and faithfully preserved in the coming years when SE finally decides to begin winding down the game's production.

It would make money because it would be giving players who do not like all of the revisions an option that's more accessible than learning Japanese. It would make players less likely to not renew their sub, and perhaps even contribute to a sense of value because it would instill the perception that SE cares about their input/views, and would move to accommodate their preferences.

I don't see how accommodating a preference that's well within their abilities is somehow something to argue against. It's not going to drive up costs, it's not going to divert resources away from other things. At worst, players would probably just have to wait a little bit longer for content releases, since the type of workload I'm suggesting is on par with QA testers launching the game in different languages with different cutscene/audio options set in the game options. You ever notice how some people load in faster than others in Praetorium? That's a biproduct of that.

If you do want enjoy the game in its original form as much as possible, the easiest way is to learn Japanese, nowadays there are plenty of resources free online for learning, it isn't much of a luxury as you might think.

It's not about having 'luxury', and I've looked into many of those. Actually learning a language is more complicated than just memorizing a bunch of words and their appropriate context, which is what a lot of these resources only teach.
I've already explained in previous posts that learning a second language is not a feasible ask for a lot of people, otherwise, I would have done so, or better yet, the need for localizing the game would be drastically reduced. And even then - it's a massive time and effort investment that a lot of people simply do not have the luxury of affording.

It's also not a sound rebuttal to what I'm suggesting, since it's less work on the devs to put out a language option that's more in-line with the source material than it is for those who lack the time to pick up a second language. And even if I did, I'd still be a vocal proponent of consistency that transcends the language barrier, as opposed to different languages having characters be re-written to fulfill a projected preference on the part of the localizers. It's not like they're adding a whole new language option to the game, either, it's still English.

You would also get to play with good voice acting from ARR if you were to rewind the story in Japanese.

I already play it with Japanese cutscene audio/dialog. Many people seem to like the EN voiceover, I don't. The VAs are all probably very lovely people and I wish them the best, but I'm not a fan of their performance in FFXIV. It's a JRPG, first and foremost.

The actual entitlement in this thread is coming from the person who wants their native language to have two dedicated translations when there are hundreds of languages that don't even have one.

You do realize that English is the only language option with the most amount of revisions that literally do not exist in other languages of the game, right? If you talk to most NPCs, view item descriptions, or read various other things in German or French and compare it against a machine translation of the Japanese script, you'll find that it's more consistent in that regard than it is in English, so calling me entitled for being displeased with that is a bit obtuse.
I don't see why you should be bothered. And yes, you are arguing in bad-faith like you're taking offense to the mere suggestion.

[PorxiesRCute]

I don't think that adding a second English language option would really drive into any expenses. The EN localization team has been very transparent at Fanfests, in blogs, interviews, etc. exactly how their process goes, and believe me when I say it, much of the work for what I'm suggesting has already been done.

Right. It would cost no money to pay the writers to write an additional script, nor to pay the voice actors to record twice as much dialogue. That would just be free.

It's not about having 'luxury', and I've looked into many of those. Actually learning a language is more complicated than just memorizing a bunch of words and their appropriate context, which is what a lot of these resources only teach.

Correct: As I mentioned before, you also need immersion. Which playing a video game in your target language provides. As does reading books and watching TV shows. Sorry there's no magic button to make you fluent without effort.

You do realize that English is the only language option with the most amount of revisions that literally do not exist in other languages of the game, right? If you talk to most NPCs, view item descriptions, or read various other things in German or French and compare it against a machine translation of the Japanese script, you'll find that it's more consistent in that regard than it is in English, so calling me entitled for being displeased with that is a bit obtuse.
I don't see why you should be bothered.

I'm literally not "bothered". If they chose to offer a second English translation, or chose to revise their translating style going forward, I wouldn't really care. I don't actively want it to not happen, I just recognize the reality that it won't, and I'm telling you why your "suggestion" is pie-in-the-sky wishing.

And yes, you are arguing in bad-faith like you're taking offense to the mere suggestion.

Ah, yes, "this isn't going to happen" is bad faith, but "writing two scripts and paying for twice as much voice work wouldn't incur any extra costs" isn't. Makes sense.

[Telkira]

Right. It would cost no money to pay the writers to write an additional script, nor to pay the voice actors to record twice as much dialogue. That would just be free.

If you had paid any attention to my post, you'd know that much of the work was already done in translating the JP script, text, etc. to English.
Also, no additional voice lines would need to be recorded. Players would just launch the game with JP voiceover/cutscene audio, since it would be transcribed from that content anyway.
Of course there's expense to be had in implementing this, but compared to adding a whole new language to the mix, it's a drop in the bucket, especially when they already test around these specific parameters for players who choose to play with specific settings. And considering that people are paying $14USD/mo to play this game, they certainly have the capital. That's more than what can be said about most MMOs.

Correct: As I mentioned before, you also need immersion. Which playing a video game in your target language provides. As does reading books and watching TV shows. Sorry there's no magic button to make you fluent without effort.

Telling people who are dissatisfied with the localization to just 'learn Japanese' is not a valid rebuttal to their criticisms, nor is it a valid dismissal of suggestions for how their criticisms can be accommodated (such as adding a separate EN language option).

I'm literally not "bothered". If they chose to offer a second English translation, or chose to revise their translating style going forward, I wouldn't really care. I don't actively want it to not happen, I just recognize the reality that it won't, and I'm telling you why your "suggestion" is pie-in-the-sky wishing.

You're arguing in bad-faith by saying just 'learn Japanese' and insulting me by calling me entitled. People tend to do that when they're bothered about something.
As for this being a 'pie in the sky' dream, I've seen them make changes in response to user feedback/requests. This is definitely feasible and do-able, and I won't stop arguing in favor of this for as long I intend to continue playing, because there's no way that this could harm anybody's experience.

Ah, yes, "this isn't going to happen" is bad faith, but "writing two scripts and paying for twice as much voice work wouldn't incur any extra costs" isn't. Makes sense.

See above. No additional lines would need to be recorded because it'd already be representative of the Japanese voiceover content, just translated rather than 'localized'.

Look I'll even attach a screenshot I found on Imgur.



By the way, this setting isn't just some tertiary feature.
Part of my argument about it being not outside the range of cost is because they already have to test features associated with this, such as the timing of spoken dialog in voiced cutscenes, in-action voiced dialog blurbs, and other things to make sure that it's properly timed (even though the spoken audio might not align properly with the subtitles).

Having a separate English option would simply revise this content to align not only with this, but also with other aspects of the JP script/text content.

[PorxiesRCute]

That's like telling people who don't like English dubs of anime to learn Japanese because English voiceovers don't mesh well with Japanese animation and writing.

I would and have also said the same to people who complain about anime dubs. I repeat: There are so many online resources to help you. And guess what? Immersion is the best way to learn a language, so playing FFXIV in Japanese will also help!

[Telkira]

I would and have also said the same to people who complain about anime dubs. I repeat: There are so many online resources to help you. And guess what? Immersion is the best way to learn a language, so playing FFXIV in Japanese will also help!

Believe me, I would love NOTHING more than to magically learn Japanese, but not everyone has that luxury.
And even then - it's not like I wouldn't care if I could just 'play it in Japanese' that there are content discrepancies. If I could, though, I suppose I wouldn't mind not having to talk to you and other entitled players who seem to take offense at a suggestion that wouldn't harm their experience.

And also, simply repeating what you said doesn't make automatically make it compelling, nor does it rebut my point about learning Japanese being more burdensome than implementing a second language option for English that's more in-line with the JP script, since SE charges $14 USD/mo just to play it and just needs to implement and test it.

Even then - if the game were faithfully translated, as opposed to being localized, you wouldn't complain. You would accept it for what it is, and enjoy it as it is and we wouldn't be having this conversation, because you'd still be a fan.
You wouldn't have to defend it because you wouldn't know you were missing anything, because that thing wouldn't have existed in the first place (and that's a good thing).

[Chajii]

Believe me, I would love NOTHING more than to magically learn Japanese, but not everyone has that luxury.
And even then - it's not like I wouldn't care if I could just 'play it in Japanese' that there are content discrepancies. If I could, though, I suppose I wouldn't mind not having to talk to you and other entitled players who seem to take offense at a suggestion that wouldn't harm their experience.

And also, simply repeating what you said doesn't make automatically make it compelling, nor does it rebut my point about learning Japanese being more burdensome than implementing a second language option for English that's more in-line with the JP script, since SE charges $14 USD/mo just to play it and just needs to implement and test it.

Even then - if the game were faithfully translated, as opposed to being localized, you wouldn't complain. You would accept it for what it is, and enjoy it as it is and we wouldn't be having this conversation, because you'd still be a fan.
You wouldn't have to defend it because you wouldn't know you were missing anything, because that thing wouldn't have existed in the first place (and that's a good thing).

This game has never promised to have a "faithful translation", there are only localisations, the $14 USD/mo is providing you the localisation, making another version would obviously costs more than what they are doing.

If you do want enjoy the game in its original form as much as possible, the easiest way is to learn Japanese, nowadays there are plenty of resources free online for learning, it isn't much of a luxury as you might think. You would also get to play with good voice acting from ARR if you were to rewind the story in Japanese.