Feature Request/Suggestion - English (JP) Language option in Launcher

[Telkira]

I doubt that a forum thread is going to pull much traction, but I want to make a suggestion that the developers and localizers add a second English language pack for the game, one that is a more direct translation of the original JP text and script, rather than a localization of the JP content.
I think this would be a better, since a lot of people seem to really enjoy the EN localization, but a lot of others feel that it isn't necessary to enjoy the game's content.

The English version of the game -a localized, somewhat 'westernized' version - is not perfect. As a matter of fact, it is riddled with various deviations from the Japanese source material many (myself included) perceive to be flawed, while the German and French scripts appear to be, for the most part, consistent with and faithful to the source material, if not being proper translations outright in most instances.

Fans who do not like the EN LOC as it exists now do not appreciate the frequent liberties that the EN LOC team takes. We may find it excessive, unremarkable, and unnecessary, and sometimes even offensive. Revisions to things like word choice, phrasing, and sentence sequencing can radically change how a character is perceived, such as their intentions or feelings, which influences other aspects of the scene or environment.

I'll give an example, this is from a dialog tree for the quest 'Flower to a friend'. I was able to translate these using both machine-translations and with the help of a friend who speaks Japanese.

Taciturn Miner: Excuse me, sinner. I am planning a journey into dangerous territory and need a bodyguard. Can you help me?
Taciturn Miner: My destination is the bridge that stretches across the northern chasm. I should be able to reach it but I will need you to watch my back once I arrive. There is something I must do...

Taciturn Miner: This is where a close friend of mine lost his life. He was a miner, one of the best. Until the day he was attacked by a sin eater.
Taciturn Miner: After Daedalus Stoneworks closed and the Talos fell into disrepair, he tried to find alternative methods for operating the trolleys, such as having them pulled by lizards. It was during one of these trials that he met his end.
Taciturn Miner: Though you are an outsider and never met him, it would mean a lot to me if you could join me in paying respects. Here, cast this flower into the ravine.

Taciturn Miner: I wonder if he is watching us now, alongside all of the other great Ronso of the past. Many of the villages and mountains in Amh Araeng bear their names.
Taciturn Miner: My friend and I once dreamed of opening mines and naming them after ourselves. I still hold on to that hope, even though he is no longer with us.
Taciturn Miner: I can tell you too have lost loved ones. What do you do to overcome the grief?

大柄なロンゾ族 : すまない、旅人よ。
亡くなった友人を弔いに行きたいので、護衛を頼めないだろうか。
(Lit. Big Ronzo: Apologies, traveler. I'd like to go and mourn a friend who'd passed away. Could you please escort me?)
大柄なロンゾ族 : このあたりは人口も少なく、魔物がはびこる一方でな。
町の外に出るだけでも、一苦労なのだ。
よろしく頼む。
(Lit. Big Ronzo: The population around here is sparse, and monsters are rampant. It's hard enough just to get around outside of town. I'll be counting on you.)

大柄なロンゾ族 : 鉱山労働者仲間だった友人は、ここで亡くなった。
罪喰いに襲われたのだ。
(Lit. Big Ronzo: My friend, a fellow miner, died here. He was attacked by a Sin Eater.)
大柄なロンゾ族 : 彼はダイダロス社が撤退し、タロースが使えなくなっても、
リザードにトロッコを牽かせることができないか、
試行錯誤していて……そのさなかに、な……。
(Lit. Big Ronzo: After the Daedalus Corporation had withdrawn and the Talos was no longer viable, he tried to figure out if he could get a Lizard to pull a minecart... and in the midst of that...)
大柄なロンゾ族 : 旅人よ、よければ君も弔ってくれ。
この「弔いの花」をアンバーヒルに向かって、
投げてくれればいい。
(Lit. Big Ronzo: Traveler, if you like, you may mourn, too.
Please take these "Mourning Flowers" and throw it towards Amber Hill.)

大柄なロンゾ族 : ……知っているか？
昔、このあたりで採掘業を営んでいたロンゾ族は、
集落や山に、歴史的な偉人の名前をつけていた。
(Lit. Big Ronzo: ...Do you know? Lonzo people used to work in the mining industry around here, and they named their villages and mountains after historical figures.)

大柄なロンゾ族 : 俺と友人は、この線路の上で、
いつか自分たちで鉱山を拓き、かつての偉人のように、
そこへ自分たちの名前をつけようと話していたんだ。
(Lit. Big Ronzo: My friends and I used to talk about how we would one day start our own mine on these tracks and name it after ourselves, like the great men of olde did.)

大柄なロンゾ族 : ……君も旅人なんかをやっていると、
幾度となく別れを体験しているだろう。
どうやってそれを乗り越えたのだ？
(Lit. Big Ronzo: ...As a traveler, you must have experienced many separations. How did you get through them?)

You can see the distinctions. For the most part, it's largely faithful and consistent, but the main gripe is that the name 'Taciturn Miner' is not 'Big Ronzo/Ronso'. 'Taciturn' is word that most people would probably have to google, and 'Big Ronzo' emphasizes their affiliation with more clarity, and players would probably be able to piece together what that term means.

Moreover, there is more than enough emphasis and emotion being expressed by way of the original Japanese dialog. Nothing is lost in translation. The player is told outright what this character's business is and why they need an escort, while reading the character's dialog may even imply that our Hrothgar miner friend here may have more 'grim' intentions than mourning, (but that's just me).

I think it would have been perfectly fine to keep it in Japanese.

And then there's the 'Haurchefant' controversy, which I won't go into too much detail, but I would love it if I could experience this character in his canonical, proper form and not this half-hazard bastardization that the Localizers took it upon themselves to leave us with without consulting the proper parties.

There was nothing wrong with canon Haurchefant.

They admitted fault with how they handled this, and had they not done that, I would have probably never renewed my subscription. I don't support revisionism and censorship in games. Altering things like characterization between regions is textbook censorship, and does not improve the product. Many people might disagree with that, but deep down they know I'm right. It lacks integrity, and if it really were a better characterization, then that much would be reflected in his canonical depiction. What we got was a sanitized parody, and I find it egregiously offensive, as did others.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...sions-of-FFXIV

And then there are instances which, like the Haurchefant controversy, completely go beyond localization and are outright revisionist, omitting objective functionality in favor of flavor without substance.

In EN:
(Grid)
Minion Enthusiast: You're asking about my curious collectible? Well, he's...uh... I actually have no idea what he is. But I'm assuming his armor is based on some sort of ancient relic, and that makes him a good deal rarer.
(Limsa)
Minion Enthusiast: Isn't he positively adorable? ...What is he, you ask? Erm, well, judging by the crescent moon and his ice blue armor, I think he's supposed to be a guardian of Menphina or some such?

JP: (JP, FR, and GER NPCs have identical dialog)
ミニオン好きの冒険者 : えっ、私が連れてるミニオンが気になるって？
だったら、ウルダハに行ってみるといいわよ。
きっと、手がかりが見つかるはずだから。
(Lit. Minion-loving adventurer: Oh, you're curious about the minion I have with me? Then you should go to Ul'dah. I'm sure you'll find some clues there.)

FR:
Férue des mascottes : Ma mascotte vous intrigue, pas vrai ? Héhéhé ! Vous n'êtes pas le premier à m'approcher pour savoir où je me la suis procurée. Comme je ne suis pas vache, je vais vous donner un petit indice : allez enquêter du côté d'Ul'dah.
(Lit. Mascot enthusiast: My mascot intrigues you, right? Hehehe! You are not the first to approach me to find out where I got it. Since I'm not stupid, I'll give you a little hint: go investigate near Ul'dah.)

This wouldn't be such a big deal if, like the French dialog, the English actually told players where to go, thereby acknowledging their interest but still fulfilling their function and directing the player where to go. There is no justification for this deviation, it's egregious.

And finally, there are others which, like the Haurchefant debacle, deviate egregiously from the Japanese text to make a joke. Though I personally didn't find any issue with the joke, I support the change because it was returned to be more in-line with the Japanese text.
I'm talking about the Wind-Up Moenbryda Description.

Here's a thread where someone complained about it.
https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/452180

This wouldn't have happened if the text was a faithful adaptation of the source material like what myself and others want. Even if it would mean that I don't get a good chuckle or laugh from it, I would rather experience the game for what it is than someone else's interpretation which deviates from said source.

But in sum, I think implementing a secondary EN language option that is a proper translation of the JP content would be viable.

I would prefer it much more, and it wouldn't be that much of an issue, since the localizers already have the same notes at hand. It would just require more time, time which I think would be very much to the game's benefit because they'd be acknowledging the validity of the views of those who prefer the EN fans who prefer the localization while also respecting the criticisms of those who see the value of a proper translation.

Quality means different things to different people, and there are a lot of fans who are not impressed with the practice of localizing the game, and prefer adherence to consistency as being a trademark of quality, because it emphasizes trust with the localizers and the core developers. They don't want to be deprived of content because they're afraid that a more outspoken sample of the community would support its omission, for any reason.
Having both options be available to fans would satisfy both parties, since it isn't so much about content but presentation and consistency. It'd still be FFXIV.

I've also seen fans on this forum argue outright for the censorship and 'sanitization' of Japanese media or pop culture because their contents are 'harmful' so there definitely is some racism going on with their side as well, and I'd prefer they to be offended by popular Japanese tropes than the content be censored. It's a particularly pervasive form of self-righteous preferential offense and ignorance, plain and simple. If the Japanese players are not offended by Haurchefant, then you shouldn't be either.

Localization is ultimately a marketing practice, and localizations which deviate from or compromise the original vision of the creators rob the product of artistic and literary integrity. This is why we hated 4-Kids, because they treated Japanese anime as commercial products and not as pieces of art.

Thank you.

[Jeeqbit]

The localization lead explained why it has to be this way at a recent fan fest https://www.youtube.com/live/YozopuVW8Mo?t=24529

[Telkira]

The localization lead explained...

I've seen this already. It certainly is interesting to watch and might even justify the practice to those who prefer the localization over a proper, faithful translation.
But to those who would prefer something more in-line with the source material and have that be translated, with very little (if any) deviation or revision and a commitment to consistency above all else, it does very little to convince them.

Rather, I'd argue that it supports my position, in that it underscores just how feasible it would be to implement, assuming that their transparency here is proper.

Most of their work - especially the work that Kate and Koji-Fox are describing here - is just coming up with how they go about revising the content and then adapting it. The task of directly translating it from Japanese into English is already done. They have the materials, notes, etc. and it would just require implementation and QV work, but ironically with less in the way of steps.

I'm not going to minimize or undercut the scale of exactly what it is I'm asking for. I'm fully aware that this is basically a re-implimentation of 10 years worth of textual content (NPC dialog and overworld barks, quest and duty summaries, descriptions and titles, item names and descriptions, and possibly more).

But I also know that the team is capable of doing it, especially since they wouldn't even need to re-record voices, it would just need to be timed with and be consistent with the Japanese audio. Even if it doesn't align consistently with spoken English in cutscenes or other voiced content, the player wouldn't be missing anything.
It would probably be very interesting, to see how such content aligns between translated JP content and the revised/localized EN content.

And something else to point out is that there exists a setting in-game that lets you choose which language cutscenes and other voiced contents play in. This changes more than just the audio track that accompanies it, it loads the cutscene for that specific language selection (albeit with an (*) denoting that text may not align with audio).
This is also a feature that has to be tested by the QA staff, with directed test cases built around it to ensure that the right text prompts appear and that the player's chosen 'cutscene language' audio choice, at least, aligns with what was chosen. This is the reason why, when doing things like Praetorium, you might notice that some people exit the forced/unskippable cutscenes faster than others.

I think my ask would be more than feasible, honestly. But it does, of course, beg the questions:

1. "What of the other languages? why would English get this preferential treatment?"

2. "Wouldn't this cause a rift among fans over which version is the 'right' version to play?"

To answer 1: It probably wouldn't even be necessary, considering that FRE and GER are, for the most part, just proper translations of the JP script, and don't deviate as much. They're far more consistent, save for a few exceptions. It would be something worth looking into, for consistency's sake, and certainly not something I'd argue against since I would love for German or French players to enjoy Japanese Haurchefant.

To answer 2: I doubt it. Players who enjoy the localized content would continue to do so regardless of what others say/think, just as players who would enjoy the EN (JP) content would do so all the same.

This is about accommodating preference, and since the EN script receives a fair amount of acknowledgement by SE and is signed-off on by the core team, so it really wouldn't matter.

It is a JRPG, created by a Japanese company for a Japanese audience as its priority, so of course a translation of the content in its native language would be regarded as 'definitive' or canonical. Those who don't care about consistency or are unbothered by it, or rather prefer the EN localized content, wouldn't care either way, so long as they continue to be entertained.

[Theozilla]

I've seen this already. It certainly is interesting to watch and might even justify the practice to those who prefer the localization over a proper, faithful translation.
But to those who would prefer something more in-line with the source material and have that be translated, with very little (if any) deviation or revision and a commitment to consistency above all else, it does very little to convince them.

Rather, I'd argue that it supports my position, in that it underscores just how feasible it would be to implement, assuming that their transparency here is proper.

Most of their work - especially the work that Kate and Koji-Fox are describing here - is just coming up with how they go about revising the content and then adapting it. The task of directly translating it from Japanese into English is already done. They have the materials, notes, etc. and it would just require implementation and QV work, but ironically with less in the way of steps.

Maybe you should rewatch that localization panel, because the process that Kate and Koji-Fox describes should make it clear that there is not some "directly translated" version of the entire script that exists early in the localization process that could just be used "instead", the English translation/localization is only able to be implemented after all the revision and checks are done.

When something like an anime has separate subtitle and dubtitle/closed-caption options that's because those two scripts were written at different points and in separate processes, dubtitle scripts aren't created by directly modifying an existing subtitle script, they are two separate scripting processes that are made from scratch and translating from the source language, with the resulting differences being due to the additional considerations and objectives that translators have to take into account when creating a dub script.

FFXIV is game where they only have the time and resources to do the "dubtitle" process (for all languages not just English). The FFXIV French and German localizations are going through the same MSQ scripting processes (minus the lore name stuff English has to do) as the English localization does. If they seem more "faithful" than the English localization, that's because the personal "balance" of a what the German or French translators consider and find is simply different than the "balance" the English translators consider and find.

[Telkira]

Dunno how I missed this, but I'm going to address it.

Maybe you should rewatch that localization panel, because the process that Kate and Koji-Fox describes should make it clear that there is not some "directly translated" version of the entire script that exists early in the localization process that could just be used "instead", the English translation/localization is only able to be implemented after all the revision and checks are done.

I think you should be the one to re-watch it. They flat out said that actual translation is the first task, with revisions coming later down the line (assuming the Japanese writers don't make sudden revisions, then the process repeats wherever/however necessary).
They're not making localization revisions as they go along, they have to have and maintain a 'master translation' to build from that's as direct as can be.
There are notes that are kept, discussions, consultations, meetings, everything is tracked and recorded, otherwise they wouldn't have a game.



What I'm suggesting is that they take that initial translation and just create a language option based solely on that, with no arbitrary revisions.
As I've said, the work is mostly done, it just needs to be looked through and tested.

When something like an anime has separate subtitle and dubtitle/closed-caption options that's because those two scripts were written at different points and in separate processes, dubtitle scripts aren't created by directly modifying an existing subtitle script, they are two separate scripting processes that are made from scratch and translating from the source language, with the resulting differences being due to the additional considerations and objectives that translators have to take into account when creating a dub script.

A 'dubtitle' is literally just a transcription of the dub, and does differ from the sub because subs are usually translated directly from Japanese. When the 'dub' script is made, it's done by adapting/revising/'localizing' the Japanese script into English. The Japanese content always comes first, and then the script for the dub follows.

[PorxiesRCute]

They can't even shell out the money to have their voice actors do more than one take for their dialogue in patch content, what makes you think they'd maintain a whole separate translation? Just play it in a different language if you don't like the English version.

[Telkira]

They can't even shell out the money to have their voice actors do more than one take for their dialogue in patch content, what makes you think they'd maintain a whole separate translation? Just play it in a different language if you don't like the English version.

VAs will usually record multiple takes of the same line until they get what they need, which can be the perfect delivery of a particular line, or multiple versions of the same line with minor differences, and they will just use what they can where they can.

It would be extremely counterintuitive to not do that, especially for important cutscenes in a video game.

What I'm suggesting is not outside the realm of reason, nor possibility.

[PorxiesRCute]

VAs will usually record multiple takes of the same line until they get what they need, which can be the perfect delivery of a particular line, or multiple versions of the same line with minor differences, and they will just use what they can where they can.

It would be extremely counterintuitive to not do that, especially for important cutscenes in a video game.

What I'm suggesting is not outside the realm of reason, nor possibility.

VAs in general, yes.

Please explain the disasters that were English Cid in post-Shadowbringers, or Merlwyb in post-ShB and in the EW role quest battles, or Urianger pronouncing "Y'shtola" differently from everyone else in post-EW, or Azdaja pronouncing her dragonspeak like she learned it as a second language, or...

[Telkira]

Please explain the disasters that were English Cid in post-Shadowbringers, or Merlwyb in post-ShB and in the EW role quest battles, or Urianger pronouncing "Y'shtola" differently from everyone else in post-EW, or Azdaja pronouncing her dragonspeak like she learned it as a second language, or...

Are there any interviews with VAs or directors to confirm that cheapness is the reason why? I'm assuming that the VAs have done panels where they answer questions about working with Square Enix that would explain that.

Also, my position on wanting a separate EN translation option in the settings is based on things I know about the industry, as well as what the LOC team have said themselves about their processes, and not conjecture around funding based on some less than ideal deliveries.

I did do QA work on games and a lot of it involved working alongside Localization QA, so I got to see and participate in that pipeline in real-time.
I also know it's different for each project and not every project follows the same methodology. But I'm confident in the feasibility of my ask/suggestion, considering much of it aligns with what the LOC team has said in numerous interviews.

Also, I play the game with Japanese audio for cutscenes/voiced content, which generally sounds better and captures the characters very well, so I'm not exposed to English VAs.
No offense to the EN VAs, I'm sure they do a terrific job and are wonderful people, but what you described is just not what I want to hear when I play a JRPG.

Also, doesn't Urianger already speak differently?

[PorxiesRCute]

Urianger uses different language patterns than everyone else, but he doesn't pronounce words differently. Except for Y'shtola's name, for some reason.

Are there any interviews with VAs or directors to confirm that cheapness is the reason why?

Not to my knowledge. But some things are obvious from listening. Go watch the cutscene where Merlwyb is trying to parley with the Kobolds -- when she introduces herself, not only does she pronounce her own name incorrectly (Roegadyn W's should be pronounced as V's) you can actually hear her pause as she realizes she mispronounced it, and then continues on anyway.