Purpose of Mana For Most Jobs?

[Valence]

Unlike all other gauges, MP starts full, and regens with time instead of specific actions. I mean, you can definitely make a gauge work like that too I guess. But I'd actually like them to make MP useful on more jobs like it used to be, as a more universal system BESIDES job gauges. Because removing it just has that somewhat familiar taste of asking SE to remove things like TP because it's not satisfying or working well anymore... (if the TP analogy irks you, you can replace it by whatever they deleted and that you liked)

[Sjol]

Unlike all other gauges, MP starts full, and regens with time instead of specific actions. I mean, you can definitely make a gauge work like that too I guess. But I'd actually like them to make MP useful on more jobs like it used to be, as a more universal system BESIDES job gauges. Because removing it just has that somewhat familiar taste of asking SE to remove things like TP because it's not satisfying or working well anymore... (if the TP analogy irks you, you can replace it by whatever they deleted and that you liked)

I'm left to wonder why people get attached to specific elements. I know that they do, but it feels like they get attached to the part instead of the whole.

If they could make a compelling system for mana, is be okay with it, but right now it's not a compelling situation for most jobs and a meter that starts full and regenerates slowly isn't a useful concept for most of the designed jobs. Forcing a "starts full and slowly regenerates" meter onto various jobs isn't good, imo.

So, if mana was a thing, it would have to be something universal like it is in PvP disconnected from individual job design. But trying to split it down the middle has just created an inelegant situation.

[Rithy255]

I'm left to wonder why people get attached to specific elements. I know that they do, but it feels like they get attached to the part instead of the whole.

If they could make a compelling system for mana, is be okay with it, but right now it's not a compelling situation for most jobs and a meter that starts full and regenerates slowly isn't a useful concept for most of the designed jobs. Forcing a "starts full and slowly regenerates" meter onto various jobs isn't good, imo.

So, if mana was a thing, it would have to be something universal like it is in PvP disconnected from individual job design. But trying to split it down the middle has just created an inelegant situation.

You do know the SE solution is to remove instead of replace, I bet if they removed mana then theirs no chance of it becoming relevant again which is why It's a bad idea just to outright remove anything.

I don't get why people are so bothered about just having mana in general, It makes sense on certain jobs use mana why not make it more important on more Jobs instead? What does making a "new gauge" for Dark knight or Black mage add??? I'm not a fan of having a gauge for the sake of having one, I dislike the oath gauge for similar reasons (where it's just a clutter 2 stack gauge system).

I will always see making mana more important as the better option instead of just accepting that the game is meant to be bland, even if I wanted to doomer post (which i do enough already), theirs literally no point in removing mana just to add some gauges on jobs like BLM/DRK doesn't add anything to the game other then more visual clutter and never having the chance of MP being more important.

[Valence]

I'm left to wonder why people get attached to specific elements. I know that they do, but it feels like they get attached to the part instead of the whole.

If they could make a compelling system for mana, is be okay with it, but right now it's not a compelling situation for most jobs and a meter that starts full and regenerates slowly isn't a useful concept for most of the designed jobs. Forcing a "starts full and slowly regenerates" meter onto various jobs isn't good, imo.

So, if mana was a thing, it would have to be something universal like it is in PvP disconnected from individual job design. But trying to split it down the middle has just created an inelegant situation.

The problem is not being attached to something, or a part of something, the problem is seeing things getting removed without anything added back in counterpart, making the game poorer and poorer as a result.

The last and only time we have had something actually added to the battle system was in Stormblood with job gauges...

[Sjol]

The problem is not being attached to something, or a part of something, the problem is seeing things getting removed without anything added back in counterpart, making the game poorer and poorer as a result.

The last and only time we have had something actually added to the battle system was in Stormblood with job gauges...

Pure removal isn't necessarily a bad thing, but even with Kaiten it was rolled into something else as part of the design. The rotations in FFXIV are extremely constrained and are designed to be played more like a piano piece than dynamically responding to the environment for most jobs -- something the community seems very split on. The devs clearly have an idea of exactly what buttons they want you to press in what order because they literally force you to or see severe damage drop-off. oGCDs are designed to be run at 1m or 2m intervals to line up with party burst windows. Rotations are designed. I hope we can all agree on at least these points.

I guess the last part for me is that designs live or die on the whole, rather than the part. Something that may seem bad in isolation can become beautiful when consumed with something else. I guess I see the overall design for a lot of these jobs, and I see vestigial parts that don't really enhance the whole. I've played both with Kaiten and without and don't really miss Kaiten. I don't miss DoT-based songs. And while I can get decent DPS on DRG and it used to be my favorite job, I don't enjoy how it plays right now.

This isn't my thread and there are volumes written discussing FFXIV's job design changes and this isn't that thread, so that's all I really wanted to say on this. I understand people have different likes and dislikes and you're welcome to hate certain job designs. Personally, as someone who deals with design all the time, I try to look at the whole and how the parts come together because sometimes something that is amazing in one design is just cruft/bloat/vestigial/etc. in another.

[Supersnow845]

I think the oath gauge is fine because it dictates 3 CD’s of which 2 are only dictated by the gauge for their CD while the third actually has a CD on top of its gauge cost

Arguably the most egregious gauge is SCH’s because while union is stronger and more flexible SGE basically does 99% of the effects of union with a simple CD in soteria

[Rithy255]

I think the oath gauge is fine because it dictates 3 CD’s of which 2 are only dictated by the gauge for their CD while the third actually has a CD on top of its gauge cost

Arguably the most egregious gauge is SCH’s because while union is stronger and more flexible SGE basically does 99% of the effects of union with a simple CD in soteria

Cover is a bloat useless ability that doesn't even deserve to be on PLD's hotbar even if was off gauge it would still be useless, it was only ever good when it had built in mitigation. It's a holy sheltron and intervention gauge in reality, which can be done by putting it on 2 shared stacks, PLD's the definition of having redundant abilities (cover, Shield bash ect.) and out dated designs such as a oath gauge holding down the job.

It's not really a contest between who has the worse gauge, but I don't want "gauges" slapped onto jobs, I want gauges to actually make the job feel interesting which a lot fail, adding a "mana gauge" is just more visual clutter that I'm not a fan of.

[Eldhelion]

Cover is a bloat useless ability that doesn't even deserve to be on PLD's hotbar even if was off gauge it would still be useless, it was only ever good when it had built in mitigation. It's a holy sheltron and intervention gauge in reality, which can be done by putting it on 2 shared stacks, PLD's the definition of having redundant abilities (cover, Shield bash ect.) and out dated designs such as a oath gauge holding down the job.

It's not really a contest between who has the worse gauge, but I don't want "gauges" slapped onto jobs, I want gauges to actually make the job feel interesting which a lot fail, adding a "mana gauge" is just more visual clutter that I'm not a fan of.

Have to disagree, the amount of lives I saved by using it speak for itself.
pld can save a pull by covering the last resser and giving they time to cast res

[Rithy255]

Have to disagree, the amount of lives I saved by using it speak for itself.
pld can save a pull by covering the last resser and giving they time to cast res

I've never seen cover be useful or a skill worthy of hotbar space, I'm not a fan of it being there for the sake of very niche situations, I'd want the skill to actually be useful.

In any hardcore content if you have one rezzer (lets say no healers and like a RDM left) usually in that situation PLD's cover isn't going to save that run, In normal content theirs a possibility, but you also have a niche spammable skill called clemency to keep rezzers topped up in that exact situation, infact because covers got such a short range and in general if you want to "save" teammates you got intervention the skill is generally hard to ever actually use as a "run saver".

It's not like I'm against cover but for one PLD's a class that needs space, it's new rotation is very boring I would rather have more DPS skills added to the job then skills like "cover" and "shield bash" take up space while still being rarely useful. If they want to make PLD's skills like Cover actually more strong and impactful then I'm fine with it but in it's current state on a job plagued with hotbar space issues It's in need of that space. It's been two expansions now that cover has just remained a skill you will rarely use/see.

circling back to my original point what's even the justification that it's on the oath gauge? It feels like the only reason it's there is because they can't think of putting anything intresting on PLD's gauge.

[Sjol]

circling back to my original point what's even the justification that it's on the oath gauge? It feels like the only reason it's there is because they can't think of putting anything intresting on PLD's gauge.

My guess is they felt like all the jobs needed a gauge of some kind. The Oath Gauge could probably be represented by cooldowns instead. That said, if every other job has a gauge, it becomes part of the player expectation and understanding of the game. Having the one odd-man-out job does become a problem. That said, I also think there's some jobs that don't really need gauges, but have them kind of shoehorned in. It's definitely an area for improvement.