Jobstones

[TheMightyMollusk]

2. SMN should be split off from Arcanist into its own job. Just reassign all of its identity to "SMN" instead of "ARC" like expansion jobs, and have it be acquired and start leveling at level 30 absent the ARC pre-reqs. Like a HW job but beginning at ARR-appropriate level 30 instead of 50.

I would argue that Scholar should be the one split off. Summoner follows more obviously from arcanist, as a DPS using summoned arcane creatures as a focus. Scholar branches off into healing instead.

[Supersnow845]

I would argue that Scholar should be the one split off. Summoner follows more obviously from arcanist, as a DPS using summoned arcane creatures as a focus. Scholar branches off into healing instead.

However SCH retains actual pet control being somewhat core to their job design which despite the ground up rework is still very much part of ACN’s lore

SMN meanwhile could delete carbuncle tomorrow and nothing would change

SCH thematically flows better from ACN than SMN does

[TheMightyMollusk]

However SCH retains actual pet control being somewhat core to their job design which despite the ground up rework is still very much part of ACN’s lore

SMN meanwhile could delete carbuncle tomorrow and nothing would change

SCH thematically flows better from ACN than SMN does

Scholar's fairy is an entirely separate entity that comes with their job stone. Carbuncles and egis are both created from the caster's aether. (Which also explains, in lore terms, why we can glamour the egis back into carbuncles, but not the fairies.)

ACN also doesn't actually control the carbuncle in any meaningful way anymore either.

[rawker]

Thematically speaking, SCH branching off from ACN is still valid.. Them summoning carbuncles as ACN is still put to use when summoning Lily. And just because an ACN have switched to SCH doesn't mean they can no longer summon Carbuncle. They are still ACN to the core. So yeah, Carbuncle glamour on SCH is still valid.

[Sjol]

Thematically speaking, SCH branching off from ACN is still valid.. Them summoning carbuncles as ACN is still put to use when summoning Lily. And just because an ACN have switched to SCH doesn't mean they can no longer summon Carbuncle. They are still ACN to the core. So yeah, Carbuncle glamour on SCH is still valid.

In terms of actions, though, ARC to SMN mostly stays the same as you level up. SCH actually loses ARC abilities when you add the job stone. I find ARC to SCH really jarring actually. I also agree with the other poster about the faeries being separate and therefore much easier to clearly separate

[rawker]

In terms of actions, though, ARC to SMN mostly stays the same as you level up. SCH actually loses ARC abilities when you add the job stone. I find ARC to SCH really jarring actually. I also agree with the other poster about the faeries being separate and therefore much easier to clearly separate

Before I continue, may I ask when you started playing FFXIV?

[Sjol]

Before I continue, may I ask when you started playing FFXIV?

ShB

My point about the abilities is that if you look at the tooltip in the Actions dialog, you'll see that most of the low-level SMN ones also list ARC, but the low-level SCH ones don't. SCH's kit isn't built off of ARC, but SMN's is.

[rawker]

I see. Thanks for answering that.

Here's how I see it. If you are familiar with object-oriented programming, imagine that Arcanist is an independent class. As an independent class, it has all the methods and variables of its own. In the case of Arcanist, I will refer to it as ACN from now on(not to confuse with a company with the same shortname), it was the pets. These pets used to have HP bars, gain enmity, have their own set of behaviors you can toggle, abilities and actions all compiled in a pet hotbar.

Now we have Scholar (SCH) and Summoner (SMN). They inherited from Arcanist... One can argue that polymorphism is at play as we have Egis and Fey, which had different implementations of the summon method. Now, SMN and SCH, while both sharing the base methods and variables with ACN, they also have their own set of variables and methods.

Base classes can be complete, with very minor tweaks/improvements, and that new functionalities, esp if these functionalities does not coincide with the base class can be done with the dependent classes. In this case, the pet system in ACN class could have been left as it is and improved upon, then any ability and action must be placed on SMN and SCH.. So the argument on the tooltip is normal and justified.

Now onto the problem....

SE did not stand their ground on the pet system. Instead of approaching the issues head on, we got EW SMN which is the absolute worst decision they have ever made.

[Sjol]

I see. Thanks for answering that.

Here's how I see it. If you are familiar with object-oriented programming...

...snip...

Now we have Scholar (SCH) and Summoner (SMN). They inherited from Arcanist... One can argue that polymorphism is at play as we have Egis and Fey, which had different implementations of the summon method. Now, SMN and SCH, while both sharing the base methods and variables with ACN, they also have their own set of variables and methods.

...snip..

Now onto the problem....

SE did not stand their ground on the pet system. Instead of approaching the issues head on, we got EW SMN which is the absolute worst decision they have ever made.

I've been a developer for a long time, and, yes, I'm familiar with OOA/OOD, but I doubt they would be implemented that way since you would want the whole thing to be as data-driven as possible. You would want the job designers to add and remove abilities, set their levels and potencies themselves.

But I would also argue that the backend implementation doesn't matter as much as what makes sense from job designer perspective. Clearly given the way they split where the abilities go, ACN is more closely aligned to SMN than SCH with fewer abilities changing between the class and job in the ACN => SMN transition. Though, that is only a today issue. Redesigns of the class and jobs could completely flip that in the future.

With regards to SMN and pets and SE folding, I think that's a strong claim. I understand that you don't like the current incarnation of SMN but to claim it's the worst decision SE has ever made, I think is a stretch. And with regards to them not holding their ground, I don't even know what to make of that as I'm sure there were people in SE on both sides of the issue and the side arguing for the removal of pets won out for now. It's even possible they took out pet logic because they wanted Beastmaster to be more special. We simply don't know.

[SeverianLyonesse]

I would argue that Scholar should be the one split off. Summoner follows more obviously from arcanist, as a DPS using summoned arcane creatures as a focus. Scholar branches off into healing instead.

Actually I think I will revise my suggestion and agree with you. I think I misremembered job quests and thought the Nym stuff appeared earlier in the 1-30 quests.

So I would propose Scholar and Ninja be split off into level 30 "expansion" jobs with no associated classes, and Rogue reworked into its own thing.