Healing Focus or DPS Focus

[Aravell]

SGE should have its healing potential merged regardless of the state of toxicon

I cant believe they didn’t see what SCH was doing in ShB and not realise that the only thing holding it back from being an absolute healing monster was limited weave windows and energy drain and then they proceeded to make a class that’s just SCH but without energy drain

I kind of find it funny that people tend to make so much noise in general about WAR's healing output being problematic while being completely fine with how SGE can fire off enough free healing to heal 2 concurrent runs of savage (both are problematic in terms of balance).

Probably because SGE has a green icon.

[Lucyfurr1988]

I kind of find it funny that people tend to make so much noise in general about WAR's healing output being problematic while being completely fine with how SGE can fire off enough free healing to heal 2 concurrent runs of savage (both are problematic in terms of balance).

Probably because SGE has a green icon.

theres too much healing around full stop.

warrior is the most egregious when it comes to a non healer role having too much healing.

IMO the tanks and dps should lose all healing in favour of mitigative abilities.

healers should have the focus on healing but with less ogcd abilities and more gcd dps neutral abilities. healing has become way too powerful and giving so much healing to roles that arent healer is as big a problem as the 1 button rotation.

we barely have to plan out our heals to the point you can literally throw healing plans out the window and just yolo it and still do same damage/healing output.

having a healing rotation thats has dps attached to it while removing healing from other roles would go a very long way in terms of making steps towards a decent healing design

[Ramiee]

SGE is purely missed potential the job, I honestly blame the subrole barrier healer idea.
This whole pure vs barrier healing subrole thing is one of the worst design choices for this game I have ever seen, it would be like adding an official Selfish Tank/Support Tank support tank to the game. Not only does it restict Job design heavily it also makes it that new players will maybe pick up one role then get too scared to try another job in the same role because the subrole is different.

[rawker]

If we /pray harder, maybe they will bless us with the return of GCD Shadowflare to SCH.

[TheDustyOne]

As long as they're heavily time/resource gated and there's much fewer oGCD heals, DPS neutral GCD heals don't have to be a problem. The main benefit I think they'd bring in comparison to oGCD healing is the fact they slightly break the 111 monotony if done right. They become bad when they're always readily available and have no risk to use, this is the problem that the current healing paradigm has with its glut of oGCD heals where we can ignore the base GCD heals because they're just not needed most of the time.

Ideally healing should have some cost associated with it rather than being always neutral. If you want top DPS as a healer, then you need to also have the most efficient healing, not just simply having healing available, top DPS as a healer should be a highly risky venture as you're ultimately playing with everyone's life. The cost doesn't have to be much, a "loss" of about 100-150 potency per resource (GCD/Stack of whatever/Gauge/MP) similar to Energy Drain.

Out-of-combat prepping I don't think is a bad thing either; a lot of jobs generate some resources outside of combat, cooldowns themselves are something that generate outside combat, so using some healing reserves to charge an attack isn't necessarily bad, but mob damage should be increased so that it's riskier to do so. Worst case scenario Square could always slap a "while in combat" condition to the heals to not generate those resources.

[Katish]

As long as they're heavily time/resource gated and there's much fewer oGCD heals, DPS neutral GCD heals don't have to be a problem. The main benefit I think they'd bring in comparison to oGCD healing is the fact they slightly break the 111 monotony if done right. They become bad when they're always readily available and have no risk to use, this is the problem that the current healing paradigm has with its glut of oGCD heals where we can ignore the base GCD heals because they're just not needed most of the time.

Ideally healing should have some cost associated with it rather than being always neutral. If you want top DPS as a healer, then you need to also have the most efficient healing, not just simply having healing available, top DPS as a healer should be a highly risky venture as you're ultimately playing with everyone's life. The cost doesn't have to be much, a "loss" of about 100-150 potency per resource (GCD/Stack of whatever/Gauge/MP) similar to Energy Drain.

Out-of-combat prepping I don't think is a bad thing either; a lot of jobs generate some resources outside of combat, cooldowns themselves are something that generate outside combat, so using some healing reserves to charge an attack isn't necessarily bad, but mob damage should be increased so that it's riskier to do so. Worst case scenario Square could always slap a "while in combat" condition to the heals to not generate those resources.

Yeah but if they added more dps neutral skills and made that the entire role, there would be little difference from reaching your OGCD + continuing your dps combo (1,1,1,1,1....2)... it's either 1,1,1,1,1,1....2 (dot), 3 (OGCD rare heal if needed)....or 1,1,1,1,1,1....2 (dot), 3 (DPS neutral heal if needed). DPS neutral skills fall under the same issue as OGCDs, that's why I said it's basically the same thing and doesn't look to influence really any real decision making unfortunately. I/e they end up in the same boat and do not influence monotony as monotony in the current healer design is as follows: If it isn't a dps gain, it's considered a heal and if it is a heal then it is monotonous in nature (That's why Assize is seen as a dps tool rather than a heal one). That's why you turn them into DPS gains which would look to influence the risk/reward scenario where they influence other skills for a certain amount of time and would make you want to press them to change (1,1,1,1,1,1...). Heals atm are just too powerful no matter what healer, and are barely needed (they need to focus on that while also solving the monotony crisis). Which is why I think windows would be great in that regard while also reducing our potency unless under a certain condition, they would add more decision making which unfortunately the role has lost entirely.

[Lucyfurr1988]

Yeah but if they added more dps neutral skills and made that the entire role, there would be little difference from reaching your OGCD + continuing your dps combo (1,1,1,1,1....2)... it's either 1,1,1,1,1,1....2 (dot), 3 (OGCD rare heal if needed)....or 1,1,1,1,1,1....2 (dot), 3 (DPS neutral heal if needed). DPS neutral skills fall under the same issue as OGCDs, that's why I said it's basically the same thing and doesn't look to influence really any real decision making unfortunately. I/e they end up in the same boat and do not influence monotony as monotony in the current healer design is as follows: If it isn't a dps gain, it's considered a heal and if it is a heal then it is monotonous in nature (That's why Assize is seen as a dps tool rather than a heal one). That's why you turn them into DPS gains which would look to influence the risk/reward scenario where they influence other skills for a certain amount of time and would make you want to press them to change (1,1,1,1,1,1...). Heals atm are just too powerful no matter what healer, and are barely needed (they need to focus on that while also solving the monotony crisis). Which is why I think windows would be great in that regard while also reducing our potency unless under a certain condition, they would add more decision making which unfortunately the role has lost entirely.

its funny that youre focusing on the dps trotation part which i also said was an issue but i dont think people would have as much an issue with if healing rotations wer ya know actual rotations while keeping the dps up.

[Supersnow845]

For all intents and purposes DPS neutral GCD heals are just oGCD heals

Pnuema and macrocosmos are technically a gain in cleave content but in single target pnuema is just dosis+oGCD cure 3

Lilys at least actually allow you to move glares into the burst window you normally wouldn’t be able to fit inside the burst window but that’s not really much because then since they become a gain they basically become a “must press”

So “neutral” heals are either a gain (in which they go the way of gap closers” or can achieve the same thing by being an oGCD

[TheDustyOne]

Neutral GCD vs oGCD is purely down to style and preference, they both heal without interrupting the stream of damage, it only tackles how one might go about designing the healing part of the kit, not the damage part. The big problem we have on the healing side is we have too much available healing and not enough incoming damage to put a dent in any of it, and if we were to stress that kit, we'd quickly find that amount of incoming damage would be too much for the average player, this would be true regardless of GCD vs oGCD.

Whatever refund system a neutral GCD uses should be complementary to a damage kit, not just merely a lily clone, like unlocking a DoT on SCH when a shield breaks, or a buff that AST can give to a teammate, etc. It doesn't have to be a storage of 3 stacks that burst all at once, it could be spent little by little to refund the damage, or it could pull a pneuma and do both at the same time. Or a job could just simply have oGCDs and not worry about a refund system at all.

I do think a subtle loss is better than completely neutral, as it prevents the whole "store for raid buffs" thing if the loss is big enough. Completely neutral ends up feeling like you can just use anything and it wouldn't matter, you'll get the same result anyway, better to make not healing risky but rewarding.

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Also to put in my 2 cents for the main topic at hand, ideally it shouldn't be a healing or dps dichotomy; it should be both. We heal when we need to because we should be the only ones capable of meeting the healing requirements, and we damage when we don't need to heal. The 2 parts of the kit should synergize and feel cohesive to the fantasy of the chosen jobs. One of the problems at the moment is the low healing requirements, so even if we made the damage kits engaging, we'd still be relatively unnecessary in a half-decent group in casual content and could be replaced by a DPS, so healing absolutely needs to be better, but of course you can't make inevitable healing downtime dull, so our DPS kits need improving too.

[Rozeee]

Also to put in my 2 cents for the main topic at hand, ideally it shouldn't be a healing or dps dichotomy; it should be both.

Sums up my opinion about threads like these. The job design for healer is just straight up bad on every end. Every button is its own contained silo that has 0 interaction with the rest of the kits.

Imagine this treatment with the dps. "DPS job is to deal damage". Let's streamline the process and make a caster with 1.5s GCD attack and fill the rest with abilities like fleche, contre sixte, sidewinder, shadowbringer, upheaval, sonic break, etc. It's obviously bad for anyone that plays DPS but this is the treatment we get for our healing cooldowns.

Anyway, get ready to be dissapointed in 2 days when we get another healing button.