New DPS skills

[remiff]

"So since you guys didn't liked Chainsaw... We added a second one!"
Not convinced by MCH new skill, it feels a bit uninspired to have the same skill back to back. Maybe the job action will be better...?

Like for the summoner, who would really be thrilled about getting Fester II as a summoner spell?

I hope they've at least reworked how etherflows function or generated them differently than with that energy drain/siphon junk.

And, most importantly, I hope they've renamed "Fester" to something more fitting for the new summoner style, and that we get more than just 2 per minute because, currently, the spell is completely underwhelming.
Even if they change the animation and nothing changes behind the scenes, it'll still be underwhelming, haha.

Anyway, even if it's too early to draw conclusions, I'm really not excited about what's coming.

[Sylvain]

Like for the summoner, who would really be thrilled about getting Fester II as a summoner spell?

I hope they've at least reworked how etherflows function or generated them differently than with that energy drain/siphon junk.

And, most importantly, I hope they've renamed "Fester" to something more fitting for the new summoner style, and that we get more than just 2 per minute because, currently, the spell is completely underwhelming.
Even if they change the animation and nothing changes behind the scenes, it'll still be underwhelming, haha.

Anyway, even if it's too early to draw conclusions, I'm really not excited about what's coming.

I was excited to get a new visual on FireI so a new visual on Fester, sure!

But I mean, this is just the benchmark, it's probably a lv 92 or 94 talent upgrade, like really, nothing much. If anything we should be happy to see that now!
I don't want a lv90 trait 2.0...
We got a visual upgrade, with 0 interaction, for a lv 90 perk.

[Taranok]

We got a visual upgrade, with 0 interaction, for a lv 90 perk.

Which is kind of how they should be doing it. There's 3 things leveling up should accomplish.

1. Full rotation unlocked at level 70 (first ultimate.)
2. Visual Update of skills after level 70
3. Potency increase, maybe, of skills after 70 (while careful to preserve level 70 balance.)

The problem with adding new skills after 70 is it starts to make the leveling experience get especially rough, with BLM and SMN as prime examples of rough leveling experiences, and it disrupts the balance of level 70. With, for example, RDM and SMN so horrifically outcompeting every other job at 70 that it can practically serve as an extra, bad, other DPS being brought into something like UWU or UCOB.

Likewise, waiting to level 86? to have a full rotation for a job just feels especially bad when you get downleveled and wonder where your rotation goes.

It's a little bit on the boring side, but gunbreaker is somewhat of a cautionary tale on leveling up. The process of going from 80 to 90 made the class actively worse. DRK is kind of in the same boat. Between adding new buttons and somewhat ruining the older experience, it just feels worse from its new additions. Ninja likewise feels the same, where forked/fleeting raiju added nothing of intrinsic value to the class other than bloating out an already bloated class.

I digress. The point is, getting nothing of actual value leveling up is kind of the better way to do this when levels get this bloated. To put it another way, one of WoW's best changes was giving everyone 90% of their class kit by level 20, and the rest came from a combination of certain talents and artifact items where present.

[Sylvain]

snip.

I don't think the balance at anything below max level is relevant...
It's best if everything is balanced but what matters is current content.
For old content if anything they could just apply a hidden modifier, let say BLM is 5% below what it should do, make everything hurts 5% more in that specific instance and done.

I also agree that core elements should be unlocked early, SMN and BLM being prime example of what not to do.
BLM get to relearn how to DPS at lv 60, not as much of an issue now that 60 isn't the cap anymore, but still. It would make much more sens to unlock fireIV at 52 and BlizzIV at 54 so that by the time you reach 60 you know how to play with the new kit.
At least SMN got his second pet action before 90, but 86 is still WAYYY too late, can't disagree with that.

However, there are things that can be done which change your gameplay without requiring learning everything again which is, usually, what capstone skills are.
Paradox, Foul, Xenoglossy do not require you to relearn your job. It's a clear simple addition.

But I think there should be something. Not just "my spell is flashier". Because if all you get from the lv 90, which is usually "the big new skill", is a new visual, then your gameplay is essentially exactly the same as before... Which is disapointing. Everyone (most?) people are looking forward what the new skills will be.

Can't disagree with you for GUN and DRK.
For DRK, it really feels like they had no idea... what could we do? let's just add a cool ogcd once a minute that... does nothing else and has 0 interaction with any other part of the DRK's kit.

[Emitans]

SMN sits in this really awkward place for me because on one hand you have, like, 90% of your kit all the way at level 30ish. On the other hand, that missing 10% is basically the only thing that makes the job something other than Ruin spam. So you feel more complete at low levels, but its so simple its still mindless.

[Big-Isaac]

Which is kind of how they should be doing it. There's 3 things leveling up should accomplish.

1. Full rotation unlocked at level 70 (first ultimate.)
2. Visual Update of skills after level 70
3. Potency increase, maybe, of skills after 70 (while careful to preserve level 70 balance.)

I disagree. Firstly, they absolutely should not have their job design dictated by something as niche as Ultimates.
Secondly, getting nothing but visual and potency upgrades after 70 would suck bigtime. Yeah, it can be annoying when you get synched down and suddenly the fun parts of your rotation are missing, but having the jobs' gameplay be completely stagnant for 30 levels, and for every expansion in the future, is an awful idea. Getting meaningful new stuff is half the fun of leveling in these games, and making friggin UCOB and UWU more balanced is absolutely NOT worth getting rid of it.
Your WoW example doesn't even support you on this, either. Yeah, you get your base kit early on, but those later talent points make a massive difference to your gameplay for most specs.

Yes, some jobs, like BLM and SMN, do need to be looked at in a big way, while some others need to be tweaked (PLD gap closer at 74? Wtf?), but that absurd sledgehammer approach you're suggesting is not the way to do it.

[rawker]

One thing is certain, EW SMN is terrible and needs to be reverted to its previous state.

[Sylvain]

I disagree. Firstly, they absolutely should not have their job design dictated by something as niche as Ultimates.
.

It's kind of paradox, on one hand I agree, why would you base your design on something as niche as something barely 1-2% of the population clear (I mean current Ult... let's add week-1-2 savages).

Yet... whereelse does it matter? No one cares if AST card system is beyond broken in a Expert roulette. No one cares that X job does 15% than Y job in Expert. No one cares that any job is OP/weaker in anything but (current) ultimate...

Job design (and balance) only matters in Ultimate fight... anywhere else it doesn't matter. So what do you do? Declare that it doesn't matter and if 3 jobs are forbidden for a fight because they simply can't do it... too bad? (or if a job becomes mandatory like AST would be with the old card system)

Yes, some jobs, like BLM and SMN, do need to be looked at in a big way

I don't see what's wrong with BLM... Every spells you get each xpansion makes is a bit fresher and different to play. The core doesn't change because it is rock solide, but every addition does feel nice, yet it is minor so you never have that feeling of "I'm missing the most important part of my kit".

SMN however, can't disagree... Getting the extra skills at 86 is waaaayyyy too late.
SMN is simply too stream lined upon reaching 60 with bahamut transe.

Once you're 60, there's basically nothing new until 86.
Only visual upgrades and 1 ogcd during Bahamut.

The job at 90 feels like a lv 60 job basically.

[ThorneDynasty]

I'd say BLM has hands down the best leveling experience where the rotation at pretty much every level cap feels complete and different. What I think people actually mean when they complain about BLM is that the delevel experience can feel jarring if you are synced back far enough where you are basically playing a different job again. I don't see that as a weakness, I much rather play proc mage for a change in <60 content than do something that just feels like an incomplete version of what I do normally.

[ZiraZ]

I disagree. Firstly, they absolutely should not have their job design dictated by something as niche as Ultimates.

Ultimates are not even niche anymore, the 70 ones have a ridiculous clear rates now according to every lodestone tracking pages with UWU reaching almost 20% and all ulti clear rates are only increasing rapidly.
Aether now regularly holds over 100 parties just for ultimates during the weekend, not including any statics, I remember when 2 parties for each ultimate was the norm in shb.
Ultimates are absolutely what should design the 70/80/90 etc level brackets and that's clearly what the devs use, the problem is they work very slowly and rarely ever make changes mid expansion, so what you get when a new expansion launches is what you will work for the rest of it.