Character graphical changes are NOT in an acceptable state, please make it optional

[Mosha]

Not that I agree with that person's attitude, but the gif is also just the Jenova Limsa Plaza.

Yeah......the statement isn't exactly wrong

[Duskane]

I feel like our forums would be fine if people that have nothing to say didn't come in an distract from the conversation. The JP side don't have the same trolls from what I've seen, and people certainly are not telling people that the changes are all in their head.

sadly just how it is when there is major outcry in the community, people walk in just to disagree for attention and don't contribute anything constructive to the discussion.

[witchymumma]

You have to look at this objectively though. A large proportion of people here have sought to be empathetic and supportive, tried to offer advice (changing maps, watching the benchmark before making any hasty judgement, altering graphics settings and Gamma Correction etc.), tried to offer reassurance (the lighting in the CC isn't the best and things may not look so bad once you actually get into the game, hope that SE will make adjustments in the future to fix a few of these issues etc.) but in return, all they are met with is hostility. If you want sympathy and support, don't harass your supporters.

ergh, wish my internet would stop having seizures zzzzzz

Anyway, this is where a lot of ppl are getting the most frustrated. Yes, there are some ppl who are making judgements on their immediate reaction to the changes. But a lot of us have tried tweaking settings, gamma, waiting til they see it in the actual benchmark, etc & have tried to explain & demonstrate repeatedly that what we are talking about is actual structural changes to the models that no amount messing with gamma, lighting, etc is gonna fix & yet these same ppl keep insisting that we're wrong.

If they have physically shortened the fangs on moon kitties, there's no amount of tweaking gamma, etc that's gonna extend them to the length they were before. (And it's understandable that ppl are upset about it when it was a defining feature - sun kitties get the cat eyes, moon kitties get the fangs)

In the case of bun-girl face 4, the philtrum has been widen and the cupid's bow reshaped (being the most noticeable changes)... going through various lighting, tweaking settings, going through each of the lip types, seeing her in the trailer... none of this makes any differences because it's an actual structural change to the lips, none of it gets her lips looking anything remotely close to what they're meant to be. Then also seeing that the other 3 faces have simply had a glo-up (as expected), it's rather disheartening & confusing why only the one face had such a change made to it.

And while yes, the benchmark vs CC is a valid argument and benchmark does make certain things look better, it's only in some cases. In the case of some of these structural changes, seeing it in the benchmark just makes it look worse or more obvious.

This is why ppl are starting to get hostile about it. They try to be objective about it, they try (or have already tried) everything these ppl are suggest & they try to explain why these things don't work, even providing visuals (before & after, in different lighting, drawing on pics to demonstrate how it's been structurally changed), they're still getting the same dismissive responses as if these ppl aren't even reading the posts properly.

[LlymlaenGreene]

Please, try to tell me that they are similar.



Seriously, I'll be very surprised if you say that. I will be very surprised if anyone even says this. And I’m most surprised that whoever did this to her didn’t see it himself. Perhaps he did it blindfolded, with his left leg? I don't know.
I'm surprised I have to even be here on this forum trying to get my posts noticed so they can fix it. I'm shocked that the people who do this work did it so mediocrely in my case.

Yes, they did the environment beautifully, as far as I can tell from what I've seen. For example, the flowers are beautiful. But I don't play for the flower. I played my character, who is now objectively broken and disfigured.

I'm sure our characters should have been a priority during the graphics update. For many of us, this is the most important part of the game. They said it was just as important to them. That they will approach this issue very delicately and will attach great importance to it. I believed them and did not doubt their words for a second. But at this point, I no longer trust a single word they say.

Hello if you want to know my opinion, i think your new character looks another, this is not your character anymore in my opinion, she looks like she have botox, lol, but i am not an artist and i can not to say any about the characters *this is a joke, because some people say, what if you not an artist, you do not know anything about art* :3

[witchymumma]

You have to look at this objectively though. A large proportion of people here have sought to be empathetic and supportive, tried to offer advice (changing maps, watching the benchmark before making any hasty judgement, altering graphics settings and Gamma Correction etc.), tried to offer reassurance (the lighting in the CC isn't the best and things may not look so bad once you actually get into the game, hope that SE will make adjustments in the future to fix a few of these issues etc.) but in return, all they are met with is hostility. If you want sympathy and support, don't harass your supporters.

Also, tangent and genuine question, you don't think I was being objective in my OP?

I'm generally very deliberate with my wording (hence why these are so wordy haha), generally overthink everything & am hyper-aware of how what I say could be interpreted (yay, thanks anxiety! lol). Reading through all the posts, I was trying to see both sides & could agree with a lot of points ppl were making. However I could also see how/why some ppl were starting to get quite frustrated & unheard. I thought I was being quite reasonable, & objective as I could be, when I wrote my OP. Sure, not overly happy about my girl's lip job & did mention that but also had some positive stuff to say about the benchmark as well. Acknowledged that there aren't only ppl upset about the changes, plenty of ppl quite happy with them & both opinions are just as valid but that a lot of the disappointed ppl were feeling like their concerns were just being shut down without proper consideration. And I just generally tried to explain (probably very awkwardly) why some ppl might be coming across as hostile atm.

So I'm genuinely curious as to why you thought I wasn't being objective?
(before anyone asks, English is my first language so that's not why the confusion... just my anxiety and overthinking brain making things more complicated than they need to be haha)

[Rueby]

I feel like our forums would be fine if people that have nothing to say didn't come in an distract from the conversation. The JP side don't have the same trolls from what I've seen, and people certainly are not telling people that the changes are all in their head.

Hard agree. I feel like alot of people come in with 'it looks the same to me' meanwhile playing a whole different race- provides no feedback and just waters down any feedback thread into an argument on whether or not it is the same. There has been some helpful posts about gamma etc, but most issues seem to stem from SHAPE changes- the light could be hot pink and neon blue and I'd still notice the changes. How would anyone be able to make sense of anything when potential feedback is buried under a mountain of petty arguments. More and more I feel really discouraged by the coming of DT.

[Luca_]

Back on topic, for everyone still blaming the negative reactions on subjective tastes, here's a comparison of the male viera face 3 textures someone (OP of this thread actually!) posted in the general viera feedback thread:



Live on the left, benchmark on the right.

You can see how drastically this affects my own character here.



This is a full redesign of the entire face texture. This is not a lighting difference or a minor smoothing of the face sculpt or a slightly more detailed version, and I'm yet to see a single person with this face who doesn't think it's been butchered. SE has absolutely changed things just for the sake of change, regardless of how you feel about said changes. It is not a subjective opinion.

[noumen0nn]

Please, try to tell me that they are similar.

Just popping in to add to the voices letting you know you are not crazy, if I look at this image and the gifs from later in the thread for more than a second, I start to see very obvious differences. The lips are absolutely the worst offender but the nose shape has been altered quite a bit as well.

[Loggos]

You know the 'L' word is forbidden here, right?

snip because character limit

Ok, sorry this became a lot longer than intended. No hate or attack intended.
--
But that is the point I'm trying to make. The screenshots of the miqo are not just from the CC, they are also from the benchmark (the chocobo riding scene) which are supposed to represent the actual ingame experience.

And tbh I still think their DT character looks different and not like their current one.
I agree that the mouth does look different in shape (the lacking curve/dip of the upper lip, the lower lip's shape/outline being changed etc.) and leads to a different overall "feature". If both mouths were options in the CC I would not think "oh, those are the same". I'd definitely feel as if choosing one over the other would lead to a different characterisation.

I think the official image of the Y'shtola-faced miqo is a bit misleading (I don't mean to say it's an attempt of manipulation - of course you choose a particularly good-looking image for your promotional material, that's understandable.)

The changes are very subtle and if you only go by this very staged, idealised picture (that may also not be applicable to every race and face type) then you wouldn't expect the results we have seen from all kinds of players the last couple of days. My point is that this picture just doesn't reflect the majority's experience in the actual benchmark.

I respect your opinion but I do think the gif and the comparison images of not only the miqo in question but also many other people (incl. on the Japanese forums) have shown that remodeling the features has in fact taken place, leading to an appearance change beyond lighting.
I just don't think this is a fact that can be denied. It has been proven by many people, including players with 3D modelling experience (in the Viera thread somebody posted a very interesting analysis).

If you think the changes are not personally bothersome to you then I won't dispute your personal taste because I'm happy if people have a good time with DT.
But please don't try to downplay what has been objectively demonstrated over and over again. The mouth shapes (and other things) have been changed. It is simply not just the lighting.
And that can lead to your character “feeling” very differently. My character went from edgy dark knight knock-off that is eternally stuck in her 2000s MCR phase to basically a doll. Nothing inherently bad about that, some people might even think she looks better that way. But that’s just not the character I want.

And as much as emotions are really heated right now (I understand both sides are probably at the limits of their patience) it does feel dismissive when your character of several years that you really care about gets changed, doesn't feel like it's the one you grew attached to and then people either argue over and over that it's a) not there (it is) and b) if it is there it's not a big deal (and if we care we are just exaggerating so much, we need to touch grass - what if I'm allergic, damn it? ).
If it's not a big deal to you that is all good.

But people expressing their dissatisfaction (and there *are* lots of analytical posts) with a product that they have invested lots of time and money in, on a forum that serves this very purpose are also legit in their view.
Like yes, the fact that something that I really love to do in my free time but also has been a major money sink for me, may change the most important thing (my char) is a bit meh tbh. Do games end/change etc.? Yes. But that doesn’t mean it’s unreasonable that people experience emotions related to it. We can acknowledge something and still think “well that sucks”.

And as long as there is still an opportunity to provide our feedback and opinions it’s important and fair to do so imo. (This of course also includes the perspective of people who *do* like the upgrade.)
I'm annoyed but me (and others) writing about it here doesn't mean we lack total perspective and think it is objectively The One Worst Thing in the world right now. And if FF ever shuts off I'll be sad just as I'll be sad when my favourite show or game ends or is cancelled but I can move on.

I guess, since we only talk about FF here this frame of reference is missing and it may seem like this right now is The One Thing that ruins our lives but imo that's misleading and pretending this has to be our overall mindset just seems to be a bit in bad faith tbh. We can be unhappy and attached to our chars and still find the logout button (I have seen it happen!).

[Scintilla]

Out of curiosity, I thought I'd take a look at the Seeker of the Sun faces to see if they all appear in that way and whether it is a constant appearance throughout the benchmark or something which only appears under particular lighting conditions.

I did try to match as close with the face/lips as I could, even down to the hair just incase that has some effect on light/shadowing that I hadn't known of. It appears only to be visible when facing direct light face-on. The Limsa map of CC and the Gridania Indoor map if you were directly facing the lights were the most obvious.




While it did also appear in the earliest shots during the benchmark where the player is traveling through the trees, the rest appeared fine from what I noticed.




So I decided to check my own Miqote under the same lighting conditions. My Keeper of the Moon:





I suppose what I'm saying is that these images are very selectively chosen for their unflattering lighting. I can't say that I noticed it at all while running through the benchmark myself on my own alt before checking forums, but then I'm clearly more relaxed than others seem to be when it comes to the adjustments.