Character graphical changes are NOT in an acceptable state, please make it optional

[witchymumma]

You have to look at this objectively though. A large proportion of people here have sought to be empathetic and supportive, tried to offer advice (changing maps, watching the benchmark before making any hasty judgement, altering graphics settings and Gamma Correction etc.), tried to offer reassurance (the lighting in the CC isn't the best and things may not look so bad once you actually get into the game, hope that SE will make adjustments in the future to fix a few of these issues etc.) but in return, all they are met with is hostility. If you want sympathy and support, don't harass your supporters.

ergh, wish my internet would stop having seizures zzzzzz

Anyway, this is where a lot of ppl are getting the most frustrated. Yes, there are some ppl who are making judgements on their immediate reaction to the changes. But a lot of us have tried tweaking settings, gamma, waiting til they see it in the actual benchmark, etc & have tried to explain & demonstrate repeatedly that what we are talking about is actual structural changes to the models that no amount messing with gamma, lighting, etc is gonna fix & yet these same ppl keep insisting that we're wrong.

If they have physically shortened the fangs on moon kitties, there's no amount of tweaking gamma, etc that's gonna extend them to the length they were before. (And it's understandable that ppl are upset about it when it was a defining feature - sun kitties get the cat eyes, moon kitties get the fangs)

In the case of bun-girl face 4, the philtrum has been widen and the cupid's bow reshaped (being the most noticeable changes)... going through various lighting, tweaking settings, going through each of the lip types, seeing her in the trailer... none of this makes any differences because it's an actual structural change to the lips, none of it gets her lips looking anything remotely close to what they're meant to be. Then also seeing that the other 3 faces have simply had a glo-up (as expected), it's rather disheartening & confusing why only the one face had such a change made to it.

And while yes, the benchmark vs CC is a valid argument and benchmark does make certain things look better, it's only in some cases. In the case of some of these structural changes, seeing it in the benchmark just makes it look worse or more obvious.

This is why ppl are starting to get hostile about it. They try to be objective about it, they try (or have already tried) everything these ppl are suggest & they try to explain why these things don't work, even providing visuals (before & after, in different lighting, drawing on pics to demonstrate how it's been structurally changed), they're still getting the same dismissive responses as if these ppl aren't even reading the posts properly.

[witchymumma]

You have to look at this objectively though. A large proportion of people here have sought to be empathetic and supportive, tried to offer advice (changing maps, watching the benchmark before making any hasty judgement, altering graphics settings and Gamma Correction etc.), tried to offer reassurance (the lighting in the CC isn't the best and things may not look so bad once you actually get into the game, hope that SE will make adjustments in the future to fix a few of these issues etc.) but in return, all they are met with is hostility. If you want sympathy and support, don't harass your supporters.

Also, tangent and genuine question, you don't think I was being objective in my OP?

I'm generally very deliberate with my wording (hence why these are so wordy haha), generally overthink everything & am hyper-aware of how what I say could be interpreted (yay, thanks anxiety! lol). Reading through all the posts, I was trying to see both sides & could agree with a lot of points ppl were making. However I could also see how/why some ppl were starting to get quite frustrated & unheard. I thought I was being quite reasonable, & objective as I could be, when I wrote my OP. Sure, not overly happy about my girl's lip job & did mention that but also had some positive stuff to say about the benchmark as well. Acknowledged that there aren't only ppl upset about the changes, plenty of ppl quite happy with them & both opinions are just as valid but that a lot of the disappointed ppl were feeling like their concerns were just being shut down without proper consideration. And I just generally tried to explain (probably very awkwardly) why some ppl might be coming across as hostile atm.

So I'm genuinely curious as to why you thought I wasn't being objective?
(before anyone asks, English is my first language so that's not why the confusion... just my anxiety and overthinking brain making things more complicated than they need to be haha)

[Scintilla]

Anyway, this is where a lot of ppl are getting the most frustrated. Yes, there are some ppl who are making judgements on their immediate reaction to the changes. But a lot of us have tried tweaking settings, gamma, waiting til they see it in the actual benchmark, etc & have tried to explain & demonstrate repeatedly that what we are talking about is actual structural changes to the models that no amount messing with gamma, lighting, etc is gonna fix & yet these same ppl keep insisting that we're wrong.

Compromise. Many are looking at the existing models with heavily rose-tinted glasses. Under certain lighting in the existing game, characters look bad. More than bad, they can look terrible. The same still applies in the benchmark to some extent, hence my most recent post - there are still some unflattering lighting angles which affects our characters appearance. Now, if we selectively focus on the worst in the benchmark, for fair comparison alone, the same strict rules should be applied to the existing game. But in some cases, that's not the case. This is what is being disputed.

I don't think anyone is disputing obvious alterations:

If they have physically shortened the fangs on moon kitties, there's no amount of tweaking gamma, etc that's gonna extend them to the length they were before. (And it's understandable that ppl are upset about it when it was a defining feature - sun kitties get the cat eyes, moon kitties get the fangs)

By all means, search back through my post history. Find an occasion I have had a discussion with anyone over their complaint of this.

There are some structural changes across some races, not just the Keeper of the Moon fangs, but eyes is another common one. I don't think anyone has disputed that, have they? But rather than have an open discussion, many seem to take any counter point as being instant victimization and become highly rude towards anyone voicing their thoughts, offering suggestions, or putting forward such daring ideas as 'lighting'

Also, tangent and genuine question, you don't think I was being objective in my OP?

Oh, I didn't mean it against anything you or anything you said in particular. It was more a general comment that far too many are quick to become hostile towards anyone who puts forward a different line of thought:

"They changed my character. It's totally different. It's ruined."

Try to suggest that there may be remedies either now or in future, or try to politely discuss reasons for this differing appearance which don't involve SE maliciously modifying characters, and prepare for a rude response. Sadly, far too many people are unwilling to have a polite and respectful discussion

[Loggos]

Many are looking at the existing models with heavily rose-tinted glasses. Under certain lighting in the existing game, characters look bad.

We are not disputing that characters can look bad in the current version of the game. Many people even agree with that. What we say is that they don't look the same.
Even in the most atrocious lighting scenarios I still feel like my char is my char. She looks like a terrible gremlin but I still love her.
In the benchmark she doesn't feel like the char I want, even in the best scenes.

It is frustrating when you try to calmly and respectfully explain (as many actually have) with graphs and images that something you like about your char and have liked for years, and that was a very deliberate choice during their character creation bc charm points, has objectively been changed beyond what terrible or good lighting can achieve.

And then people essentially boil it down to rose-tinted glasses, a type of irrationality.

It feels a bit hypocritical to point out the lack of patience of those who are unhappy but then accuse us of having rose-tinted glasses despite coming to the meeting with powerpoint presentations of examples. :/

--

Edit:

I have written something about the lighting of the current game here. Putting it under a spoiler to not make this post unreasonably long for others.

The thing is, yes the lighting is terrible, esp. in the first pic. But even in the creepy flashlight-to-the-face-and-telling-you-a-horror-story lighting context I can still recognise/perceive the coherence of her features and her "facial identity" if you will.

The shadows do resculpt certain parts but through that their characteristic look still shines through so to speak.
I may think "wtf is wrong with you girl - but you're still my girl" (not my char obviously, but I think you get what I mean).

For example, as weird as the eyes look, I can still perceive that the eye shape is consistent throughout all pictures. It's the same, it's just contextualised differently.
Never did I have the feeling the lighting takes what I perceive as my character's face's personality away. It may just be unflattering.

This is why I think the "it's just the lighting, move your char out of the shadows" mindset is not helpful for me.
Besides the by now well-documented point that actual features have been altered and it's not just the lighting, if lighting were to change my core perception of their identity and they'd only feel like themslves in the right light this would still lead to a suboptimal experience.
We can't control the light in cutscenes or in environments, e.g., when we do dungeons or do quests in shady forest areas vs. well-lit plains.
So due to external forces there'd be considerable portions of the game where we would not perceive the visual core identity we have designed for our characters.

Maybe I have a strange perception in that regard but for me "unflattering" is not the same as "feels like a different person". I can live with the first one. It's how I have experienced a lot of ARR to EW and often I was like "meh this looks really weird lol" but it never felt OOC, broke my immersion or profoundly upset me.

But as soon as I saw my char in the (better lit) benchmark video I had this feeling of "no, sorry, this isn't really you :/ " and was, as a consequence, less excited and immersed in it.

[Scintilla]

Out of curiosity, I thought I'd take a look at the Seeker of the Sun faces to see if they all appear in that way and whether it is a constant appearance throughout the benchmark or something which only appears under particular lighting conditions.

I did try to match as close with the face/lips as I could, even down to the hair just incase that has some effect on light/shadowing that I hadn't known of. It appears only to be visible when facing direct light face-on. The Limsa map of CC and the Gridania Indoor map if you were directly facing the lights were the most obvious.




While it did also appear in the earliest shots during the benchmark where the player is traveling through the trees, the rest appeared fine from what I noticed.




So I decided to check my own Miqote under the same lighting conditions. My Keeper of the Moon:





I suppose what I'm saying is that these images are very selectively chosen for their unflattering lighting. I can't say that I noticed it at all while running through the benchmark myself on my own alt before checking forums, but then I'm clearly more relaxed than others seem to be when it comes to the adjustments.

[Scintilla]

Compromise. Many are looking at the existing models with heavily rose-tinted glasses. Under certain lighting in the existing game, characters look bad. More than bad, they can look terrible. The same still applies in the benchmark to some extent, hence my most recent post - there are still some unflattering lighting angles which affects our characters appearance. Now, if we selectively focus on the worst in the benchmark, for fair comparison alone, the same strict rules should be applied to the existing game. But in some cases, that's not the case. This is what is being disputed.

Further to this:

Characters under unflattering lighting in the Benchmark:

Characters under unflattering lighting in the existing game:




We can all choose selectively if it suits our point

[Arzalis]

...

We can all choose selectively if it suits our point

The current one looks like a character in bad lighting. The benchmark looks like a wax doll.

[cutestfox]

We can all choose selectively if it suits our point