Character graphical changes are NOT in an acceptable state, please make it optional

[Scintilla]

I see that the lower part of my character's face is done with great carelessness.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, judging by your previous posts, your main complaint has been the more prominent dimples at the mouth.

Thank you to Rein for the image:

Others have pointed out the difference so I'm just gonna say, everytime I see a Miqo'te comparison I shake my head. 'Cause literally months ago they were showing us one of these:


An exaggeration? Perhaps... but point still stands, where did all the quality gone to...

These same dimples are more prominent in the example image too. Yet this example image was (and still is, judging by Rein's post) celebrated as 'quality'. Similarly, the lower section of the face on the example image seems a very little wider - just as it does in yours. Though this is purely to my own viewpoint and, again, could be lighting or physical feature adjustment or a combination of both.

The reason something that was approved earlier and celebrated widely by players as being a positive change has now been heavily criticized? Because it has been applied to our own familiar characters. These changes on that less familiar face were easier to view as a whole. On our own characters, these same small changes now more easily picked up as being 'different' and are becoming a huge fixation for many players.

[potatsdevourer]

Correct me if I'm wrong but, judging by your previous posts, your main complaint has been the more prominent dimples at the mouth.

Thank you to Rein for the image:



These same dimples are more prominent in the example image too. Yet this example image was (and still is, judging by Rein's post) celebrated as 'quality'. Similarly, the lower section of the face on the example image seems a very little wider - just as it does in yours. Though this is purely to my own viewpoint and, again, could be lighting or physical feature adjustment or a combination of both.

The reason something that was approved earlier and celebrated widely by players as being a positive change has now been heavily criticized? Because it has been applied to our own familiar characters. These changes on that less familiar face were easier to view as a whole. On our own characters, these same small changes now more easily picked up as being 'different' and are becoming a huge fixation for many players.

Honestly I think you were on something with this. I was stoked when they released the possible look on each race, thinking my character would be looking more beautiful.
Benchmark released and of course I was mad since there are so many things I perceived as wrong. Then I tried to make point through other NPC (this time Hildibrand was put in as part of April's fool, I am male Highlander face #2 user--same as Hildy--so I think it is good idea to see how this face behaves in new environment).

Which works to my sanity, because after I compared between two Hildies, honestly I just see the new Hildy as the improved detailed version and still able to see him as is.
Of course I can point many things that I deemed to be different and I don't like, but the distance between this NPC and my feeling is what makes me finally click.

At the end of the day I am more on accepting the end result if they end up not doing anything, but still it would be nice if they can give more fine tweakings on the demanded changes.

Edit: adding Hildy picture for reference.

[Doopliss]

The reason something that was approved earlier and celebrated widely by players as being a positive change has now been heavily criticized? Because it has been applied to our own familiar characters. These changes on that less familiar face were easier to view as a whole. On our own characters, these same small changes now more easily picked up as being 'different' and are becoming a huge fixation for many players.

This is also something I can kind of understand your frustration with. I think what's more so happening, however, is that people are getting tricked by these still example images more than anything. They're deliberately taken to look as similar as possible, and in custom lighting to showcase changes all around. The Miqo'te face is actually the same as we have now--all the faces are actually the exact same--as when they first announced they were changing the way heads work. The only time they were different is in the very first preview from the NA Fanfest, when they were using the old head models.

All in all, this is a part of my concern, actually, because it does give the implication they have not been touched at all since London Fanfest, aside from editing the limbal rings to glow a little again. You can notice that even the Auri woman's pupils are still gigantic there, and Male Midlander Face 1 has the same, strange nose change as in the benchmark, and the same darkened lash line, for some examples.

When we finally get to see our characters head-on like this, however, we can more easily pick up the differences, and see things outside of their most ideal environments. As a petty defense for myself, however, I, for one, have been whining about the pupil size increase since London.

EDIT: I also wanted to mention again, they only ever showed mostly the same select few faces during both Fanfests that included the new head changes, which made things even more limited and disingenuous for players. Most of these were Face 1s, though they showed a few other Midlander faces here and there.

[Scintilla]

snip

Thank you. So Hildy's unexpected appearance helped out more than just being a simple April Fools? I'm glad to hear that it helped you in some way.

It is much easier to look at another player's character and see a nice image: the differences are minimal and generally the newer characters look better quality. This is the case for an unfamiliar face, just like in those celebrated example images. We are looking at the face as a whole, not focusing our attention on one feature in particular.
There are some examples of before-after which are a bit more questionable, I admit, and I do greatly sympathize with those players. However, these such cases are in the minority. The general agreement in threads like these of how truly terrible everything looks are more a regular part of the echo-chamber: supporting each other through unquestioning agreement

When it's our own characters that these celebrated changes are applied to, suddenly the changes become a lot more obvious. For some players, it seems this has led to a major fixation upon the changes, leading to sudden heavy over-analysis of their characters facial structure, to the point where they now can't see anything except those new changes.
We are seeing the same product as they have been showing us for a while. The same product everyone has been praising. The only difference is that we are now seeing it applied to our own characters.

I'm not saying everything is perfect. There is one difference that I'm seeing between the example images and the current benchmark, and that is in the lips. In that Miqote example image there appears to still be some glossiness or shine to them. From what I've seen in the benchmark, though, that's largely absent. That appears to be one widely criticized feature so perhaps they will look to change it in the near future. And, as I said before, neck seams, lip shape, race-specific changes etc. will hopefully all be adjusted in future.

snip

Again, to try to say they're going out of their way to 'trick' players is unjustifiably suggesting malice. Yes, the example images we got were quite limited and I agree it would have been far, far better had we been able to see these changes applied to our own characters long before this so that there was time to adjust any identified flaws or community-wide complaints. I'm sure they wouldn't intentionally elect to have such an uproar so close to release, so I presume there was some behind-the-scenes reason for such a late benchmark release. This isn't a minor update in the slightest - there's bound to be issues and delays, many that we won't know about.

From what I've seen, the characters we have been shown in examples thus far seem very much the same as what we have now - as shown in that Miqote example. The dimples are there, the slightly wider face was there. But it being an unfamiliar face made all the difference

[Doopliss]

Again, to try to say they're going out of their way to 'trick' players is unjustifiably suggesting malice. Yes, the example images we got were quite limited and I agree it would have been far, far better had we been able to see these changes applied to our own characters long before this so that there was time to adjust any identified flaws or community-wide complaints. I'm sure they wouldn't intentionally elect to have such an uproar so close to release, so I presume there was some behind-the-scenes reason for such a late benchmark release. This isn't a minor update in the slightest - there's bound to be issues and delays, many that we won't know about.

From what I've seen, the characters we have been shown in examples thus far seem very much the same as what we have now - as shown in that Miqote example. The dimples are there, the slightly wider face was there. But it being an unfamiliar face made all the difference

Whuh? I don't have much to say since it seems like everything you follow up with is in agreement...? But my useage of the word "trick" was simply a shorthand to explain why people were thinking an image might have a different impression than what we got. I've no malice, only concern and questions. Which feels to be the majority, honestly.

EDIT: Actually, looking back at my response, it feels super disingenuous to snip my response and then imply that I used that word in such a way, when my sentence was "...I actually think people are getting tricked by these still example images..." Come on, man.

[AirisRay]

Correct me if I'm wrong but, judging by your previous posts, your main complaint has been the more prominent dimples at the mouth.

Thank you to Rein for the image:



These same dimples are more prominent in the example image too. Yet this example image was (and still is, judging by Rein's post) celebrated as 'quality'. Similarly, the lower section of the face on the example image seems a very little wider - just as it does in yours. Though this is purely to my own viewpoint and, again, could be lighting or physical feature adjustment or a combination of both.

The reason something that was approved earlier and celebrated widely by players as being a positive change has now been heavily criticized? Because it has been applied to our own familiar characters. These changes on that less familiar face were easier to view as a whole. On our own characters, these same small changes now more easily picked up as being 'different' and are becoming a huge fixation for many players.

It doesn't look like a dimple. It looks like a depression running through the entire lips and adjacent cheek area. This is exactly what I talk about in all my previous posts. I also wrote a big post with a lot of examples in the bugs section.

https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-part-of-face.

In this particular example, I don't see flat, untextured lips pressed inward. This cannot be compared to what my character is now. Also, here the shape of the lips is repeated with perfect accuracy. My character's lips have completely lost their original shape and outline.

Also, in the example they presented, soft diffused artificial light falls on the character. In the benchmark we have the same sharp shadows as in the current game. Perhaps in 7.0 the light will be different. But flat, depressed lips will not turn into plump lips in any light. This is physically impossible. And also, another light will not change their outlines.

[Scintilla]

snip

So the two main points are:
- Lip Shape
- 'Depression Line' running the length of the lips and extending slightly to the cheek, creating a dimpled appearance either side of the mouth.
- Shadows appearance around the mouth

First things to highlight is the obvious difference in lip choice between your own character and that of the example (fuller lips in your own character vs thinner option in the example) and the slightly different position of both characters (the example image and, to a lesser extent, your first image being rotated very slightly to the right. Your own benchmark image being more front-facing).



In the example image:
- The outer lip shape remains largely the same. The only slight difference perhaps is the curves to the lips have been soften slightly.

- The inner line though has been changed. It no longer flexes in the middle to mirror the cupids-bow, it now remains a straight line, perhaps with a marginal upward curve at the edges. Shadows on the top lip and beneath that line have been deepened slightly, giving that curved, depressed appearance, and it extends slightly beyond the lips creating a slight dimple at either side.

- Shadows around the lips are primarily beneath the bottom lip and either side around that extended depression line, creating the dimples.




In your image:
- The top lip appears the same, except the curves have been soften slightly and the colour has become a single block, rather than having smaller shadows within the lip around the cupids-bow (like the example). Perhaps that is the reason for the flatter appearance you say you see?
In regards to the bottom lip, I'm torn as to how much or how little it's changed. Upon first glance it appears a little more boxy, with the lower edge being less of a smooth curve. Though I can't decide whether this is the combined result of both the lower-lip shadow appearance and the lip colour itself being a little less defined in the benchmark or whether this actually is a structure change. The more I look at it, the more I'm leaning towards the former, but let's err on the side of caution and say it's the latter as you claim.

- Like the example image, the inner line is flattened, the top lip is darker (perhaps this is more obvious on your own character because that lip is bigger than in the example), and there is a slight shadow running beneath that line. The line runs beyond the lip edge, into the cheeks (like in the example)

- As for shadows around the lips: the shadows on your benchmark is in the same place as the example (beneath the lower lip and at either edge of the lips at the dimples) One thing I would say is that the shadows are deeper on your benchmark than on the examples, leading to a greater contrast at those dimpled areas making them appear very slightly more pronounced. But this is shadow - not structural. That could be any number of reasons: positioning? lighting? settings? an unfortunate consequence of your own choice of lip shape compared to that of the example?


Ultimately, I think the look is more to do with shadowing/shadow appearance. I know that isn't what you'll want to hear because a physical lip structure change is a far more straightforward reason suggesting a more straightforward solution. I don't doubt you'll strongly disagree with me too.

On a more lighthearted note, I don't think I have ever stared at a character's lips for so long!

[Anarnee]

I think the look is more to do with shadowing/shadow appearance.

I feel like this def has to be a lot more than lighting. A lot of these remodels have been deceptive in 2D, I couldn't tell why my femroes lips looks so much flatter at first and then I tilted the camera some more and you can easily see the difference in the shape. Even if the new lips were not just flat across the board I'd just believe her cause I've been seeing everyone else find these differences with the lips in particular. It also def looks like the original lips rest in a smile and the new ones... I don't know what that's doing.

[Scintilla]

I feel like this def has to be a lot more than lighting. A lot of these remodels have been deceptive in 2D, I couldn't tell why my femroes lips looks so much flatter at first and then I tilted the camera some more and you can easily see the difference in the shape. Even if the new lips were not just flat across the board I'd just believe her cause I've been seeing everyone else find these differences with the lips in particular. It also def looks like the original lips rest in a smile and the new ones... I don't know what that's doing.

Ahh, you've got me staring at those lips again. It's almost hypnotic at this point xD

Looking at the top lip, it looks the same to me just with a far less defined lip edge, and a lot of extra shadowing causing the lip to look 'flat' compared to what it was. The bottom lip I am less certain, as I said in my post. The very base of it seems to remain in the same position, but it's harder to see because of less definition between the lip itself and the shadow below it. That said, watching them together like that, there does appear to be less of a curve at the outer edges of that bottom lip. Perhaps it is structural in that sense. That said, the point still remains that it is like what we saw in the examples - examples which everyone praised upon release (and still seem to be praising, rather surprisingly?)

[AirisRay]

I feel like this def has to be a lot more than lighting. A lot of these remodels have been deceptive in 2D, I couldn't tell why my femroes lips looks so much flatter at first and then I tilted the camera some more and you can easily see the difference in the shape. Even if the new lips were not just flat across the board I'd just believe her cause I've been seeing everyone else find these differences with the lips in particular. It also def looks like the original lips rest in a smile and the new ones... I don't know what that's doing.

Thank you SO much for this gif!