Character graphical changes are NOT in an acceptable state, please make it optional

[MrMordio]

It still makes more sense to keep the models the "same but better" over changing them to maybe succeed in appealing to people who didn't like the old version, at the cost of definitely upsetting the people who were happy with it.

100% this. The facial expressions and the subtleties are just different enough to make it feel like a different character. Better but the same should be the target, but I don't feel like they hit that

[Tethan]

100% this. The facial expressions and the subtleties are just different enough to make it feel like a different character. Better but the same should be the target, but I don't feel like they hit that

Considering how random yet drastic and noticeable some of the changes are, I feel like they didn't even try.

[TheDruidOcelot]

Considering how random yet drastic and noticeable some of the changes are, I feel like they didn't even try.

and yet they promised to not make them look like different characters, so people rightfully feel lied to

[Scintilla]

Better but the same should be the target, but I don't feel like they hit that

It still makes more sense to keep the models the "same but better" over changing them

I'm curious and perhaps you could enlighten me, but where is the line drawn between 'make them better' and 'keep them the same'? Where is the limit? At what point are they no longer the same character?

Ultimately, the changes appear to have been made in order to make the characters look more real - the same characters, just made to look more realistic. But all of these realistic features have been pointed out by different players to be features they dislike and that have to be reverted:

Skin texture and pores? - presumably to give a more tangible appearance, rather than cartoon-ish. A matter complained about by some.

Removal of a permanent eye glint and instead adding light reflection based on environment? - again, more in keeping with real effects of environment and lighting. But again, complained about by some as leaving their characters 'empty and soul-less'.

Extra detail to facial structure - dimples being one example. Look in the mirror. Smile. You'll see dimples! Some may be strong, others more subtle, but they'll be there. Yet some complain this goes too far and prefer to return to the more solid, doll-like appearance.

While there are more, I would think each of these would be perfectly understandable ways of trying to make the characters 'better' while still being the same character. Yet each of these have been complained about. So I ask, where is the limit? Exactly what would you be looking for?

[TheDruidOcelot]

I'm curious and perhaps you could enlighten me, but where is the line drawn between 'make them better' and 'keep them the same'? Where is the limit? At what point are they no longer the same character?

Ultimately, the changes made appear to have been made in order to make the characters look more real - the same characters, just made to look more realistic. But all of these realistic features have been pointed out by different players to be featured they dislike and that have to be reverted:

Skin texture and pores? - presumably to give a more tangible appearance, rather than cartoon-ish. A matter complained about by some.

Removal of a permanent eye glint and instead adding light reflection based on environment? - again, more in keeping with real effects of environment and lighting. But again, complained about by some as leaving their characters 'empty and soul-less'.

Extra detail to facial structure - dimples being one example. Look in the mirror. Smile. You'll see dimples! Some may be strong, others more subtle, but they'll be there. Yet some complain this goes too far and prefer to return to the more solid, doll-like appearance.

While there are more, I would think each of these would be perfectly understandable ways of trying to make the characters 'better' while still being the same character. Yet each of these have been complained about. So I ask, where is the limit? Exactly what would you be looking for?

realism is killing the stylization. having higher quality textures is one thing, but changing the SHAPES of actual character's features is completely different. you can have one and not the other.

[Scintilla]

realism is killing the stylization. having higher quality textures is one thing, but changing the SHAPES of actual character's features is completely different. you can have one and not the other.

I don't deny that there are some changes which have left me wondering why they were made at all: changes to positions of hair colouring or the removal of glossy appearance of lips (true, not 'natural' but we have other makeup on characters so I don't see why a little gloss would be out of the realms of reality) are two that spring to mind quickly.

But the point remains that many of the changes being complained about by lots (eye glints, skin texture etc.) are perfectly understandable changes. If even those are considered by some to be out of the question, then exactly what changes would they expect as part of this 'same but better' approach? I do feel that some of these complaints are far too dramatic

[TheDruidOcelot]

I don't deny that there are some changes which have left me wondering why they were made at all: changes to positions of hair colouring or the removal of glossy appearance of lips (true, not 'natural' but we have other makeup on characters so I don't see why a little gloss would be out of the realms of reality) are two that spring to mind quickly.

But the point remains that many of the changes being complained about by lots (eye glints, skin texture etc.) are perfectly understandable changes. If even those are considered by some to be out of the question, then exactly what changes would they expect as part of this 'same but better' approach?

i mean, they deleted elezen cheekbones and took away keeper miqote fangs, they changed the apparent luminosity of eyes as well, not just the glints, they desaturated the iris colors to look 50% as colorful. like those are ALL HUGE changes that should never have happened. the glints and skin textures wouldn't be so noticeable and abrasive if they didnt also take away all the other stylization from the characters by smoothing everything to an absolute absurd level.

EDIT: my final, clarifying, statement on the matter, because its getting to be a cyclical argument.

look. the public facing PR team swore up and down they wouldn't make people's characters look so different they couldn't be recognized. but that's what's happened.

so, because of the emotional response of feeling lied to, people are more upset than they would be if the pr team hadn't gone and made promises they knew couldn't be kept. (or could have been kept but they chose not to, because they seemingly decided the existing stylization was ugly, despite saying they didn't want characters to look realistic.)

the emotional response to being blatantly lied to is combining with the obvious disappointment at characters looking absolutely like different people than they looked like (and the bias against dark skinned characters, making them look literally grey is not at all good.)

so people are 3-5x as upset as they would have been if they had not chosen to make those public statements. even if they were just hypetrain pr fluff, they are retroactively lies. because they did not ever update with a "ok so they're going to be much more different than they were before, we're very sorry. a fantasia might not actually fix it." which would have been the better option. to be humble and actually apologize, or delay the graphical improvements until they could be done with the care and attention they actually deserved, rather than the slapdash nonsense that is being shown in the benchmark. They would have known just how different it is BEFORE the las vegas fanfest, and they made choices that obfuscated that fact.

that doesn't reflect kindly on the PR team or devs.

[cakesphere]

i mean, they deleted elezen cheekbones and took away keeper miqote fangs, they changed the apparent luminosity of eyes as well, not just the glints, they desaturated the iris colors to look 50% as colorful. like those are ALL HUGE changes that should never have happened. the glints and skin textures wouldn't be so noticeable and abrasive if they didnt also take away all the other stylization from the characters by smoothing everything to an absolute absurd level.

THIS!!! It's so jarring to see my elezen's high, sharp cheekbones smoothed out to nothingness, not to mention other issues like artifacting on au ra scales (how do you mess this in particular up. y'all had one job with au ra scales). These are things that someone looked at and went "yep, looks good" which is baffling to me

[Iscah]

I'm curious and perhaps you could enlighten me, but where is the line drawn between 'make them better' and 'keep them the same'? Where is the limit? At what point are they no longer the same character?

Changing the face shape should not have happened at all.

I am actually very happy with how my characters look right now and I don't think changing them was necessary.

What I would expect from an upgrade would be sorting out any issues with pixellation or rough edges, maybe improving the shadows and the way light sometimes behaves oddly.

There should be no change to the character's overall face shape or expression, because that is what gives a character their personality.

If I had the power to set people on graphic updates to the characters and gear, it would be customisation things: hats for Viera and Hrothgar (if there is no actual deep-seated programming issue blocking it) and customising things to better suit individual races: review Miqo'te hats to add earholes or pockets and make sure they actually fit the ears; likewise for Elezen and Lalafell; review hairstyles for each race and adjust them so they make sense – fix things that float off the head, fail to account for non-human ears or have Au Ra growing sideburns directly out of their cheek scales.

As it is, I feel like the character of my characters has been altered, while actual visual issues remain unfixed.

[Scintilla]

i mean, they deleted elezen cheekbones and took away keeper miqote fangs, they changed the apparent luminosity of eyes as well, not just the glints, they desaturated the iris colors to look 50% as colorful. like those are ALL HUGE changes that should never have happened. the glints and skin textures wouldn't be so noticeable and abrasive if they didnt also take away all the other stylization from the characters by smoothing everything to an absolute absurd level.

Funnily, I have the opposite problem with my Viera: her eyes having gone from a deep blue to almost neon! And the eye shape appears to have been changed somewhat too, but that I can live with. We're being given fantasia to change such things as eye colour (which will be the first thing on my list).
However, I appreciate that physicalities of facial features are harder to change as the alternatives available may look worse than the changed version and options are limited.

As I said, there have been changes which I dislike of my own characters and I do agree there are some things which are questionable of why they were changed at all. However, the point remains that this is a very subjective topic and one which some players seem to be taking to extremes. Hopefully a balance can be found which pleases the majority, but for that to be the case, I think some players need to be a little more flexible on accepting some changes. When there's some complaining of 'pores too visible' or even just something as vague as 'lost charm', it's going to be difficult to find a compromise