Honest question about the dreaded sim

[Valence]

I'm sure some of you have already heard of the *gasp* simulator. You know, the thing that apparently literally runs on your browser and allows a group of players to connect together, pick any mechanic of a savage fight or ultimate, turn damage on or off, and practice said mechanic again and again without having to go through the whole fight every wipe?

The horror, right? That's cheating! But it got me thinking about a few things:

- What does it say about the encounter design of this game? Or even the whole way fight progression is done, and sometimes heavily gated behind time (notably ultimates where you have to go over 10+ minutes of excruciating fight to have a new opportunity at wiping after 10s on your current prog point)? Is this respecting our time?

- Does it mean I'm a very bad person when I sometimes feel like I'd like to use that tool in order to directly skip to the parts of the game that I actually find fun? (aka: progging mechanics, not going over things past the group every time, which constitutes 95% of the time spent in prog) Does it mean I'm missing something fundamental about the game? Does it mean I'm just... playing the wrong game?

I honestly don't have clear answers about this, but it makes me very conflicted, especially with how this tool seems to get more prevalent in raiding circles.

[Mosha]

Humans make tools to make their lives easier a sim was bound to happen and strictly speaking, using said sim isn't TOS so you shouldn't feel bad. Work smarter, not harder.

[Daeriion_Aeradiir]

This isn't a question with a single answer, as it really comes down to what you value as an individual.

Having done world prog basically every tier since Final Coil, I'm more the opposite. I live for the adrenaline of finally conquering that one hard mechanic deep into the fight through high consistency at getting to your prog point as a team. Getting past Intermission 2 in A8s on week 3 of Midas only to see brute justice unfold his wings is still one of my favorite moments in my raiding career. Or finally conquering wormhole just to see Perfect Alexander's megazord sequence within a few pulls.

Using the simulator would ruin that experience for me. It's easy to conquer any mechanic regardless of difficulty when you can ram at it for 30x an hour due to starting right at it again. Which is also precisely part of the design behind encounters - you could technically de-incentivize the simulator by putting every hard mechanic right at the start of the fight, but it results in a very boring fight once you get past the initial zerg rush. They spread mechanics out, sometimes deep into the fight, to increase the time people spend progging fights, and to attempt to create a more smoother difficulty curve through the fight overall.

That being said, people are free to do whatever they want. It's become more popular lately since at the end of the day, the majority are motivated by rewards, and have little qualms using stuff that helps them achieve those rewards quicker. Like I mentioned at the start, it really comes down to what people value.

[Saraide]

I'm sure some of you have already heard of the *gasp* simulator. You know, the thing that apparently literally runs on your browser and allows a group of players to connect together, pick any mechanic of a savage fight or ultimate, turn damage on or off, and practice said mechanic again and again without having to go through the whole fight every wipe?

The horror, right? That's cheating! But it got me thinking about a few things:

- What does it say about the encounter design of this game? Or even the whole way fight progression is done, and sometimes heavily gated behind time (notably ultimates where you have to go over 10+ minutes of excruciating fight to have a new opportunity at wiping after 10s on your current prog point)? Is this respecting our time?

- Does it mean I'm a very bad person when I sometimes feel like I'd like to use that tool in order to directly skip to the parts of the game that I actually find fun? (aka: progging mechanics, not going over things past the group every time, which constitutes 95% of the time spent in prog) Does it mean I'm missing something fundamental about the game? Does it mean I'm just... playing the wrong game?

I honestly don't have clear answers about this, but it makes me very conflicted, especially with how this tool seems to get more prevalent in raiding circles.

It probably means that your group has limited time and wants to make the good use of that time. It means you arent blind progging. It adds to the pile of reasons why you'll have an easier time progging than world first racers. If you're having fun progging a fight while using a sim, then clearly you arent doing that much wrong.

[TBerry]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The sim is a website.
It doesn't break ToS, nor does SE care, likely.

[Reinha]

Console players have access to it so it's totally fair to use it if that's your preference.

[WantlessYoYo]

Favor of the Sim, wanna use it?
Go ahead
Don't wanna?
Surely don't use it then, both are good

Now my biggest issue was that, at least on the time i did TEA, parties would take hours to even get close to fill so prog was both slow outside and inside the raid itself, so add to that reaching a far point like it is wormhole and having to reach said extent even further

So while sitting on PF waiting for said parties to fill sim worked as a double entretainment and practice for a future mech wich everyone would gladly welcome

Both using it and not using it are completely fine imo

[Valence]

The point I was trying to make was less about whether it's ethical or not to use a third party website with a sim on it, and more of the implications. And also what it means for me, and what it means about the design of the game. I want to reiterate that I didn't really make that post to disucss whether it's TOS compliant or not, or kosher or not.

This isn't a question with a single answer, as it really comes down to what you value as an individual.

Having done world prog basically every tier since Final Coil, I'm more the opposite. I live for the adrenaline of finally conquering that one hard mechanic deep into the fight through high consistency at getting to your prog point as a team. Getting past Intermission 2 in A8s on week 3 of Midas only to see brute justice unfold his wings is still one of my favorite moments in my raiding career. Or finally conquering wormhole just to see Perfect Alexander's megazord sequence within a few pulls.

Using the simulator would ruin that experience for me. It's easy to conquer any mechanic regardless of difficulty when you can ram at it for 30x an hour due to starting right at it again. Which is also precisely part of the design behind encounters - you could technically de-incentivize the simulator by putting every hard mechanic right at the start of the fight, but it results in a very boring fight once you get past the initial zerg rush. They spread mechanics out, sometimes deep into the fight, to increase the time people spend progging fights, and to attempt to create a more smoother difficulty curve through the fight overall.

That being said, people are free to do whatever they want. It's become more popular lately since at the end of the day, the majority are motivated by rewards, and have little qualms using stuff that helps them achieve those rewards quicker. Like I mentioned at the start, it really comes down to what people value.

Thanks for answering to the point. I'm actually interested to hear from people that actually enjoy the parts that I don't. If anything it tends to point at a me problem, which is me not liking 90% of endgame challenging content being about rehearsal. And it also goes a long way to show that the parts I like (progging and job gameplay) doesn't stand itself on its own for that yes, no matter how hard you make those mechanics, they're easy to conquer relatively "fast" on their own (or on a sim).

There is some interesting aspects I've found on different bosses bringing up a certain amount of pattern rng like P8S doorboss (unfortunately made some annoying due to boss going away at non equal timers), or O7S making teams actually prog on different mechanics every time. I don't know what to think of those, but it felt less tedious to me, less repetitive. I think I have a real issue with repetition overall.

[Bun_Vivant]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
The sim is a website.
It doesn't break ToS, nor does SE care, likely.

From what's being said here, this "simulator" ihas a high probability of being copyright infringement.
Copyright is like many things: if you don't defend it, you may lose it.
So SE will care, and they will probably take down the website eventually.

That they haven't already sent a take-down notice may just be because no one at SE noticed it.
But they have notice of it now, thanks to this thread.

[LilimoLimomo]

I'm sure some of you have already heard of the *gasp* simulator. You know, the thing that apparently literally runs on your browser and allows a group of players to connect together, pick any mechanic of a savage fight or ultimate, turn damage on or off, and practice said mechanic again and again without having to go through the whole fight every wipe?

The horror, right? That's cheating!

I mean, it's subjective. In my experience growing up, looking at a written guide that explained how to beat a boss in a game was considered cheating. Fast-forward a few decades and a significant subset of the FF14 community expects players to have watched an instructional video before grouping up. Maybe some of those players see this as cheating and do it regardless, but presumably many don't.

For my own subjective experience, I think it's cheating if a player doesn't go into a fight blind and progress purely by iteratively learning from failure while not using any combat add-ons that aren't compensating for a disability. Others will think differently, and that's fine. And what do I think of people who cheat? Keep reading to find out.

- What does it say about the encounter design of this game? Or even the whole way fight progression is done, and sometimes heavily gated behind time (notably ultimates where you have to go over 10+ minutes of excruciating fight to have a new opportunity at wiping after 10s on your current prog point)? Is this respecting our time?

The question "is X respecting our time" can't be directly answered, because it's highly dependent upon what any given user wants. Having the patience and fortitude to continually overcome the earlier parts of a fight just to have the opportunity to see and learn the later parts of a fight is something some players want; this is a key design aspect of games like Sekiro and Dark Souls. But that's also something that some players hate; they'd rather have things like checkpoints at different phases so they don't have to repeat content they've already had their fill of and can instead focus solely on what's new. Two different types of players (among many others) who want different things, and clearly a single game experience isn't going to please them both. If I had to guess, I would say that the design of Ultimate content seems to be aimed towards a demographic that's closer to the Sekiro camp, and that's going to be better for some players and worse for others.

- Does it mean I'm a very bad person when I sometimes feel like I'd like to use that tool in order to directly skip to the parts of the game that I actually find fun? (aka: progging mechanics, not going over things past the group every time, which constitutes 95% of the time spent in prog) Does it mean I'm missing something fundamental about the game?

Whenever we talk about morality and ethics, the key question we should be asking is "who does this hurt?" So if you practice a fight using some side-program to circumvent the intended progression loop, who are you hurting? I invite you to come to your own subjective conclusion, but I would say that the answer is "nobody". At worst, you are theoretically "cheating yourself" by circumventing the opportunity to do it the intended way and thus achieve whatever satisfaction awaits at the end of that path. Maybe that would be satisfying for you! Or maybe it would be grueling and miserable, and when you finally reached the finish line you'd feel nothing beyond the end of your suffering. So think about which path you think would bring you the most joy, and take that path. There is no morally correct answer, there is only an answer that brings you more or less happiness. (And of course, probably best to make sure your teammates are on the same page as well.)

Does it mean I'm just... playing the wrong game?

The problem with finding a different game that suits you better is that you may never find one. It can be helpful to look because you might get lucky, but there simply isn't a perfect game for most people out there. Like so many things in life, most people have to settle for "good enough". So stay open to new possibilities, but at the same time don't discard what brings you some measure of joy simply because it isn't perfectly tailored to your every need. Being scrappy and finding ways to make what you have work (like this simulator) are invaluable skills to have when trying to find happiness in this complex world of ours.

Anyway, whether you agree or disagree, I hope all of this serves as some helpful food for thought.