After 1 (arguably 2) expansions what is square trying to achieve with WAR (and PLD)?

[Supersnow845]

HOT TAKE HERE:
Tanks should not have heals except 1 on a long CD (yes i dislike WAR design). You are tanking. Mid and shields is our job not outheal a healer.
W2W should not be the norm and require skill. You are a casual and not skilled enough = NO W2W. I think W2W is a bane of this game.

Stop giving "win buttons". Easy to learn, hard to master. A full xpac with nothing to learn and be bored out our minds is enough. The skill ceiling we have now is how much boredom can i bear before I fall asleep.

I feel like this isn’t a hot take for anyone besides WAR mains who like being able to press one button to delete casual content, one other button to delete savage tank content and do the most damage with the easiest rotation

[TheOperator3712]

HOT TAKE HERE:
Tanks should not have heals except 1 on a long CD (yes i dislike WAR design). You are tanking. Mid and shields is our job not outheal a healer.
W2W should not be the norm and require skill. You are a casual and not skilled enough = NO W2W. I think W2W is a bane of this game.

Stop giving "win buttons". Easy to learn, hard to master. A full xpac with nothing to learn and be bored out our minds is enough. The skill ceiling we have now is how much boredom can i bear before I fall asleep.

I agree with the principle of the last sentence. I hard disagree with not giving any tank any healing. As has been proven in other games, a self-healing tank can be a good and fun design. I wouldn't call any of the tanks well designed at present though; or healers.

[Aravell]

I agree with the principle of the last sentence. I hard disagree with not giving any tank any healing. As has been proven in other games, a self-healing tank can be a good and fun design. I wouldn't call any of the tanks well designed at present though; or healers.

While a self-healing tank can be a good design, it's more a problem of WAR having a little bit of everything.

If we're looking at a healing tank, they usually have high HP and barely any flat mitigation or shields, the gameplay is usually soaking damage with their high HP and then healing back up. WAR can be a healing tank, but they do need to have their flat mitigation and shields removed or lessened. They can't be good at everything while also bringing a bunch of healing, that's how you get unbalance.

[GoatOfWar]

If WAR is an expansion ahead you can look forward to GnB and DrK to be even dumber to play, gotta bring them down to EW WAR levels of gameplay after all.

Take a shot any time an ability reads ''Additional effect''

[TheOperator3712]

While a self-healing tank can be a good design, it's more a problem of WAR having a little bit of everything.

If we're looking at a healing tank, they usually have high HP and barely any flat mitigation or shields, the gameplay is usually soaking damage with their high HP and then healing back up. WAR can be a healing tank, but they do need to have their flat mitigation and shields removed or lessened. They can't be good at everything while also bringing a bunch of healing, that's how you get unbalance.

I mostly agree, especially on flat mitigation. I don't see a tangible difference between shields and temporary max hit points aside from how it interacts with Doom mechanics though, and don't see a need to completely get rid of them. Shields do need to be used intelligently though, and the shield on BW isn't. The BW shield is a 400 potency throwaway shield that shouldn't even be there. SIO shields makes sense, because of Doom mechanics. Temporary HP would be cooler, but frustrating for healers.

As for WAR just having more HP, we used to. And then ShB the colossal tragedy of tank design happened. Thanks to every tank, getting tank role mastery stapled onto their traits, this very important part of how WAR should have been designed was removed. We also used to have Inner Beast, which provided a big heal and a short duration mitigation. Which was also removed with 5.0...

[Supersnow845]

Why do we even talk about temp HP ruining white hole mechanics when white hole has basically been MIA from the game for nearly half its cumulative lifespan

The last fight with a focus on white hole that isn’t just a “fail a mechanic and get a white hole doom” is as kefka, kefka was 7 tiers ago

Crit healing has always been a bigger bane on white hole than temp HP especially since these days there is almost no distinction between single target and AOE healing because of how free it is

[Arkdra]

Fondly remembering the time when they launched paladins doing the most dps of the tanks in stormblood and this was one of the few times they nerfed a job in pve and then slammed like 6 buffs into warrior. 2 buffs for dark knight for good measure.

[Absurdity]

Fondly remembering the time when they launched paladins doing the most dps of the tanks in stormblood and this was one of the few times they nerfed a job in pve and then slammed like 6 buffs into warrior. 2 buffs for dark knight for good measure.

Back in Stormblood they still did outright nerfs, can't remember if that stance changed in Shadowbringers or Endwalker.

[Arkdra]

As for why tank healing is so out of whack, I could only hazard a guess. What I would imagine is that they have internal data that shows that failing casual content is a significant driver of sub cancels. Throwing some extra healing at tanks is a way to add a bit of a failsafe to that. If the tank is good and the healer is bad, they can muddle through. If the tank is mid and the healer is mid, the extra tank healing probably helps. If the tank is good and the healer is good, the healer dies of boredom but that healer probably ditches healing instead of cancelling. Or maybe ditches dungeon queues.

Which is bad, but is a less bad outcome than a cancelled sub. This also assumes that the bored healers actually quit, or even exist as a significant plurality. For all we know, their internal data shows that the shb healer changes have led to a positive uptick in the percentage of the games population playing healers, which could be why complaints have fallen on deaf-ish ears.

[Supersnow845]

What’s weird (note I don’t actually want this I’m just making an observation) is that there isn’t really any sort of reciprocation, there is no mechanism for a good healer to compensate for a bad tank, they instead hush also buff tanks survivability to make that not an issue

So a bad healer is compensated for by buffing tank sustain and a bad tank is compensated for by………..also buffing tanks so that no matter how bad you are you can’t die

Healers lose on both fronts and get no power fantasy out of it like tanks do