Astrologian: what is your understanding about it?

[Local_Custard]

I love astrologian. I unfortunately had to limit playing it because I got it to level 90 by the time I was finishing ARR on my alt (this is to give other jobs a chance at leveling and force myself to learn more about the game I previously ignored). When I made my first character I picked up white mage. While I enjoyed it, I felt I could do more. I tried Astrologian and fell in love with it. I'm not an expert, but I do like to think I have a basic understanding and a lot of room for growth.
It is my understanding this job is far from perfect.
What do you understand about current astrologian? How does it contrast from past AST?

If you were to condense this job, what is its core? What makes Astrologian tic in your opinion?

bonus question: I've found minor arcana to be underwhelming. The healing card can be nice but I rarely need it when I already have a plethora of other group heals to work with (and synastry if I am desperate to keep the tank alive). The damage card is a nice bonus- though I wish I could proc it more often. How might you tweak minor arcana?

[Supersnow845]

AST is the healers resident “never get attached to this job because they are going to rework it every single expansion”

Right now AST can be described in my mind as “APM for the sake of it”, AST’s burst window is incredibly complex, arguably the single most complex burst window in the game given its length, rigidity and the fact that it’s the only one of the 5 main cluttered burst windows (alongside DNC, GNB, DRK and NIN) where your APM goes even higher because you constantly have to target others to give them cards

Outside of that the class is…….fine, it still suffers from healers boring as sin DPS rotation and the fact healers are drowning in free heals. AST at least has a somewhat cohesive theme to its heals as they are all stellar themed and a lot of them have delayed effects (horoscope, star, exaltation macrocosmos) but it does have a lot of redundant buttons

As for comparison to old iterations AST (alongside SCH) has arguably fallen the furthest of any class compared to its old iteration, in HW and SB rather than cards just being generic damage amplifiers they provided utility buffs such as reducing damage, restoring MP or increasing haste, these buffs weren’t terribly well balanced to be fair but they provided flavour to the class, the old version also used time dilation to increase its buff lengths which was a very well designed way to play into their time mage aesthetic. Before SGE AST also had a stance system where you could make all of its heals give shields instead so it was the flex healer which a lot of people miss

If I were to condense this job AST could functionally lose every skill it’s gained above 70 (except maybe macrocosmos), the cards should be returned to a utility focus (but without one card that was damage oriented), royal road should come back and honestly minor arcana should just be deleted

For your bonus point minor arcana has always been weird, in ShB divination’s power relies on the seal system (4% for one unique seal, 5% for 2 6% for 3) but you also had a button called sleeve draw that would guarantee you a unique seal card, this was on top of redraw having 3 charges, minor arcana was used to dump off bad seal cards by buffing the individual damage (4% for wrong class 8% for correct class) of the card you use but in exchange it didn’t offer a seal. This was the best iteration of minor arcana (HW and SB minor arcana was functionally just a single target version of what we have now) but since the seals now only give astrodyne if the ShB system still existed you would just use minor arcana on every card because astrodyne is useless

[Raikai]

Honestly, what draws (no pun intended lol!) me most to AST are aesthetics and how good their AF sets and astrolabes look.

The job is a nightmare to optimize for me though simply because my latency (even with VPN) won't allow a comfy double weaving. It's always a mess.

I think this might be a very divisive topic among the players who enjoy the hectic AST burst playstyle, but I hope the necessity of double weaving is somehow eliminated in Dawntrail. Or at least set in a high-end optimization similar to how BLM's alternative lines are. An AST not double weaving has their damage contribution highly compromised, granted the card receivers are doing their stuff right, and isn't exactly fair that a player with a higher than average ping (130ms) is excluded from a job playing at their skill ceiling, or at least close to that.

Other than that, I really want 3 things with the rework:

- Minor Arcana imploded and replaced with something else. Anything. Lords is never there when you need for the burst window. Lady is never there when you actually need that extra ogcd during prog.
- Astrodyne needs to have its buffs changed to Damage>Speed>Crit to be less frustrating. Feels like card drawing already provide enough MP.
- Cards pairs changed to be optimally usable on [Tanks (dmg+mit) / Healers (dmg+extra healing) / DPSsers (dmg+crit)] instead of trios to Melee/Ranged. I just think it would feel more dynamic to allow every role a chance to get a card boost.

Now, for actually new stuff through DT levels, maybe more time magic themed actions with timed stuff. But add a clock to the gauge if you do so, having to check on a buff/debuff is quite cumbersome.

Also, I've been doing the job quests with New Game + and in the initial quests, Leveva implies that cards could be used to divine either the good or bad fortunes. I wonder if we could have a way to use some of the deck against our enemies. Maybe that's a better idea for a Minor Arcana rework? After all, according to the Encylopaedia, the minor arcana consists of several numbered suites, not just Lord and Lady.

[Allegor]

Cards pairs changed to be optimally usable on [Tanks (dmg+mit) / Healers (dmg+extra healing) / DPSsers (dmg+crit)] instead of trios to Melee/Ranged. I just think it would feel more dynamic to allow every role a chance to get a card boost.

This is actually a really good point I never really realized until now. With the old cards, I could give Spire to WARs so they have fun cleaving, and obviously Bole for extra mits to any tank, and Ewer to healers/casters who were running low or recently raised, basically everyone had use for any card, situational as they might be .... but now that I realize, every single card always goes to the dps. Last time I gave a card to a tank was by accident cuz the server tic didn't realize I had switched targets on time lol

Also, I personally despise the melee/ranged division. Get rid of it, I don't care what you replace it with, just burn it. Burn it

[Sylvain]

This is actually a really good point I never really realized until now. With the old cards, I could give Spire to WARs so they have fun cleaving, and obviously Bole for extra mits to any tank, and Ewer to healers/casters who were running low or recently raised, basically everyone had use for any card, situational as they might be .... but now that I realize, every single card always goes to the dps. Last time I gave a card to a tank was by accident cuz the server tic didn't realize I had switched targets on time lol

Also, I personally despise the melee/ranged division. Get rid of it, I don't care what you replace it with, just burn it. Burn it

The issue stays the same.
Let say we take this system, where it would always be "Dmg + X", X being mitigation for tanks, extra healing for healer and crit for DPS.

What would the end result be? t... making it useless.



If you card a tank, he gets X% increased damage and a useless mitigation. Why is it useless? Because he has to survive whatever would be coming without that card otherwise he'd die 66% of the time. (assuming no reroll)
If you card a healer, we get X% increased damage and extra heal which, like for the tank, is useless because you have to be able to heal whatever is coming without it otherwise you'd wipe 66% of the time.
In other words, we're back to the issue of the lord/lady. You can't base your healing off something RNG, therefor whenever it's popping up, you don't need it.

Finally, you get the DPS getting X% increased dmg and crit...

X% on DPS is stronger than X% on tank (spare DRK) which is stronger than X% on Healer.

Among all 3 cards, only the X% dps increase is impactful (and crit on dps as it's just extra dps), because you never take into consideration those bonuses.

The card system, provided it stays RNG, does not work in FF14 raiding environnement in its current iteration/philosophie.
Because no matter what buff the cards offer, you cannot setup mitigation and healing of random elements.

Unless they make it so that the extra mitigation and healing allows for extra DPS making them worthwhile while not essential.

For instance, let say a boss does very hard hitting AA and you spent a significant portion of the fight throwing Aspected Benefit, you'd get a tanking card, reducing damage taken from AA by 20% for 30s.
That mitigation allows you to shoot an extra or two malefic, making it useful while not mandatory.

Applying the same logic for healing, where damage would be much more consistent, forcing us to use Aspected Helios often, if a healing card allows us to throw 1 or 2 extra malefic, then it is fine because your buff allowed you to heal less often and thus dps more.

In these case, you'd have all 3 cards granting a palpable bonus which is at the same time not essential yet equivalent.

But since in its current iteration, you heal 99% of all damage with ogcd, that tank don't require more than general AoE + some ogcd to survive, any extra healing or mitigation is useless because it will not make a difference.
If I give you 10% extra healing potency for 15s, you will still heal the exact same amount of time as if you didn't have it in most scenarios.
If you reduce a tank damage taken by 10-20% for 15s, you would still heal him the same.

So if the supportive aspect of the card is useless, then only the dps component remain... and again... DPS wins.

The only way to make cards flavorfull and unique would be remove the RNG component.

If every minute I get to draw my 6 cards, each having a unique effect, and I get to use all 6 within that minute once, then I can plan around, so you can put any fun and engaging effect on them.

But if cards bring any form of supportive effect in an RNG manner, you can't plan around it, so you always play as if you don't have i

As a side note, it doesn't mean I enjoy the current system.
It's bland, boring and flavorless. But at the very least it is the most balanced system as in, "every card is useful".

I hope we get something new, (not expecting much tbh), but I've thought about it for a long time, in current FF14 raiding environnement, the card system (like the old one or whatever variant you do which isn't "all cards are the same"), does not work. FF isn't a game where random ponctual utility is useful, which is exactly what cards are, random and ponctual.

[Allegor]

snip

I wasn't pointing out to that idea specifically but the realization of the fact that cards are 100% worthless for non-dps players, whereas at least with the old system anyone could benefit from them, as niche as some could be. Now I'm not saying the old cards were without flaws either, but it just felt more...diverse/fair? if that makes sense.

I guess all it boils down to is that AST's very identity goes against the game's format /shrug

[Sylvain]

I wasn't pointing out to that idea specifically but the realization of the fact that cards are 100% worthless for non-dps players, whereas at least with the old system anyone could benefit from them, as niche as some could be. Now I'm not saying the old cards were without flaws either, but it just felt more...diverse/fair? if that makes sense.

I guess all it boils down to is that AST's very identity goes against the game's format /shrug

It did feel diverse, for sure. I can't deny that.

But your last sentence encapsulate my long post, its identity goes against the current game (raiding) format...

Perhaps a semi RNG system where you get, 1 DPS card, one tanking card and one supportive card would just be the good middle ground.
Such as, you draw 3 cards, each symbole having two possibilities. And redraw makes you just move to the next card (like egi summon let say) so that you can choose which card to use with only 2 button, draw/play and redraw (or "swap")

Something like a 110s CD

Sun (DPS)
Balance : Increase Damage by 10% for 20s
Bole : Increase crit chance on your next 3 skill by 50%

Moon (defense)
Ewer : Increase party healing receive by 15% for 15s
Arrow : Reduce party damage taken by 10% for 15s

celestial (support)
Spear : Party members move faster for 10s
Spire : Targeted party member next 5 cast are instant.

Let say those are the buffs you get once every 110s. (Always starting on the DPS for comfort during opener)
You do get a DPS card no matter what, but its optimal target isn't the same every time.
You get a mitigation/healing buff, which means you can plan around both.
And you get a utility spell that can either be useless or just make a specific mechanic more comfortable. For instance, on TOP, there are quite a few places where either faster movement or instant cast would prove useful, like Pantocrator. It isn't mandatory, but there are often a few places where you're like "I definitely wouldn't mind extra comfort here".

I feel something like this would be a fair middle ground between what we currently have and what the old system was.

[Supersnow845]

^in most arcana decks the “minor arcana” are functionally just the number cards divided into 4 suits (general wands, coins, swords and cups) while the major arcana are the “picture cards”

It’s strange 14 already runs off an arcana deck that doesn’t really match any actual arcana deck (though to be fair juggling 22 major arcana and 52 minor arcana would be a complete nightmare) so I think if they don’t delete it they could functionally do anything with minor arcana

[Local_Custard]

thanks for the replies!
I'm honestly open to many changes for AST, though there is always this anxiety of the gutting happening in the wrong areas or just too major-
I look forward to DT and have hope they do their best (and hopefully hire new people for healer design however unlikely that is).
anyways- onto replying the responses

Right now AST can be described in my mind as “APM for the sake of it”, AST’s burst window is incredibly complex, arguably the single most complex burst window in the game given its length, rigidity and the fact that it’s the only one of the 5 main cluttered burst windows (alongside DNC, GNB, DRK and NIN) where your APM goes even higher because you constantly have to target others to give them cards

has to look up what APM means- and yeah I enjoy the speed. I felt that on AST I had something to keep my hands busy in idle moments- maybe it's just my brain but I tend to go crazy when I don't keep myself busy.
Can you show me what the optimal AST burst window looks like? I don't think I ever got it mastered. Also, I made a while macro set for AST just so that targeting with cards is even easier- felt great to have it

Outside of that the class is…….fine, it still suffers from healers boring as sin DPS rotation and the fact healers are drowning in free heals. AST at least has a somewhat cohesive theme to its heals as they are all stellar themed and a lot of them have delayed effects (horoscope, star, exaltation macrocosmos) but it does have a lot of redundant buttons

I would be fine if the rotation was modified- either more dps buttons or something non-damage and non-heal to do to expand on what AST already has. What kind of buffs do you feel are underutilized that would make sense for AST to have?

As for comparison to old iterations AST (alongside SCH) has arguably fallen the furthest of any class compared to its old iteration, in HW and SB rather than cards just being generic damage amplifiers they provided utility buffs such as reducing damage, restoring MP or increasing haste, these buffs weren’t terribly well balanced to be fair but they provided flavour to the class, the old version also used time dilation to increase its buff lengths which was a very well designed way to play into their time mage aesthetic. Before SGE AST also had a stance system where you could make all of its heals give shields instead so it was the flex healer which a lot of people miss

I saw a video with time dilation! I would have loved to have this spell. Do you feel the stance change would fit the current game design?

If I were to condense this job AST could functionally lose every skill it’s gained above 70 (except maybe macrocosmos), the cards should be returned to a utility focus (but without one card that was damage oriented), royal road should come back and honestly minor arcana should just be deleted

I wouldn't miss minor arcana. I would be curious how the skill set change would play into level 90+ content if this were to happen.

For your bonus point minor arcana has always been weird, in ShB divination’s power relies on the seal system (4% for one unique seal, 5% for 2 6% for 3) but you also had a button called sleeve draw that would guarantee you a unique seal card, this was on top of redraw having 3 charges, minor arcana was used to dump off bad seal cards by buffing the individual damage (4% for wrong class 8% for correct class) of the card you use but in exchange it didn’t offer a seal. This was the best iteration of minor arcana (HW and SB minor arcana was functionally just a single target version of what we have now) but since the seals now only give astrodyne if the ShB system still existed you would just use minor arcana on every card because astrodyne is useless

That's a shame. I would have loved to play with that iteration just to see how it feels. I hope Minor arcana gets a good rework. If nothing else, scrapped and replaced with something else maybe.
--

Honestly, what draws (no pun intended lol!) me most to AST are aesthetics and how good their AF sets and astrolabes look.

The aesthetic is absolutely gorgeous indeed! Honestly the most well designed part of the job.

The job is a nightmare to optimize for me though simply because my latency (even with VPN) won't allow a comfy double weaving. It's always a mess.

I think this might be a very divisive topic among the players who enjoy the hectic AST burst playstyle, but I hope the necessity of double weaving is somehow eliminated in Dawntrail. Or at least set in a high-end optimization similar to how BLM's alternative lines are. An AST not double weaving has their damage contribution highly compromised, granted the card receivers are doing their stuff right, and isn't exactly fair that a player with a higher than average ping (130ms) is excluded from a job playing at their skill ceiling, or at least close to that.

I would not mind if it was optional but existed. That way the job isn't technically dumbed down and people with high ping can still enjoy the job. Though, that may take extra steps of tweaking and rework but definitely well worth the effort. They could even throw in something extra for the players who commit to double weaving. Accessibility is very important!

Other than that, I really want 3 things with the rework:

- Minor Arcana imploded and replaced with something else. Anything. Lords is never there when you need for the burst window. Lady is never there when you actually need that extra ogcd during prog.
- Astrodyne needs to have its buffs changed to Damage>Speed>Crit to be less frustrating. Feels like card drawing already provide enough MP.
- Cards pairs changed to be optimally usable on [Tanks (dmg+mit) / Healers (dmg+extra healing) / DPSsers (dmg+crit)] instead of trios to Melee/Ranged. I just think it would feel more dynamic to allow every role a chance to get a card boost.

I wish I could hop on and play with current astrodyne just to remind myself how it plays in practice- alas my computer is physically unavailable rn. I do not remember using it while also understanding what it did- I just sort of pressed it with a very vague understanding about it. Astros gets ample MP, that I agree on. Rezzes are probably the biggest drain. We also already have an ability to regen MP besides just cards. I agree on the card change part! I would love that variety- Sometimes the tank is the only melee in party and sometimes healers are the only mages. Having the ability to place cards on a co-healer with intention of helping them would make me so happy!

Now, for actually new stuff through DT levels, maybe more time magic themed actions with timed stuff. But add a clock to the gauge if you do so, having to check on a buff/debuff is quite cumbersome.

And without making it take up too much more of the screen would be a nice balance! Not sure how the time themes would play out but I can see it as "You saw into fate and became so strong you can perceive time beyond the layman's perception" or something to that effect. Level 100 is some serious business

Also, I've been doing the job quests with New Game + and in the initial quests, Leveva implies that cards could be used to divine either the good or bad fortunes. I wonder if we could have a way to use some of the deck against our enemies. Maybe that's a better idea for a Minor Arcana rework? After all, according to the Encylopaedia, the minor arcana consists of several numbered suites, not just Lord and Lady.

I would not mind that. Maybe you draw cards for specific debuffs?
Side note- I think jobs should get a DoT spread (like bard). Maybe these debuff cards can be either single target (stronger) or spread (a bit weaker)?
--

^in most arcana decks the “minor arcana” are functionally just the number cards divided into 4 suits (general wands, coins, swords and cups) while the major arcana are the “picture cards”

It’s strange 14 already runs off an arcana deck that doesn’t really match any actual arcana deck (though to be fair juggling 22 major arcana and 52 minor arcana would be a complete nightmare) so I think if they don’t delete it they could functionally do anything with minor arcana

I think adding more cards may benefit the class. A deck that large would probably be too big of an ask and difficult to get right- Just thinking of how someone would type out what each one would do and their interaction would be a beyond massive list- a whole google doc would be needed.

I hope they make good tweaks to minor arcana to make it useful and fun to use!
--

I like it because it's currently the closest thing we have to a HoT-Healer in ffxiv + we can buff players,
I also love it's heal-kit, it has so many versatile uses.

( i throwed away WHM , the moment i learned AST)

I can agree that [Minor Arcana] is one of our "weakest" abilties.
I would have reworked it to 2nd card deck that focuses on AOE utility buffs.

[Astrodyne] is the reason we have such a busy opner,
reworking that will solve the issue with opner;
the fact that u need 3 uniqe signs (RNG) to get to the 5% dmg inc is just bad lol.

[Cards]: had been cool with more depth,
but not "harder" to use;
Like if cards where role-based and gave role based buffs inc.
(Healer: dmg + MP / Tank: dmg+mit / DPS: dmg+ Crit..ect)

Other then that i'm quite content with how the job(AST) workes ,
I don't find it weak or much lacking.. it just need a bit improvements on its design.

What's a HoT healer?
I can see a reason why you need all three for a damage buff but at the same time that can make obtaining said buff take longer and further delay maximum damage. I'm open to this suggested card version- being split by role so that there is a card for everyone. That way when I have only DoM (save for the tank) or only DoW (save for the healer) I can still apply cards properly.
I like your idea on minor arcana. Another group buff would work nicely into the skill set. If nothing else, have more use. Though, I do like the extra damage (even if it is minor damage).

[Raikai]

I wish I could hop on and play with current astrodyne just to remind myself how it plays in practice- alas my computer is physically unavailable rn. I do not remember using it while also understanding what it did- I just sort of pressed it with a very vague understanding about it. Astros gets ample MP, that I agree on. Rezzes are probably the biggest drain. We also already have an ability to regen MP besides just cards. I agree on the card change part! I would love that variety- Sometimes the tank is the only melee in party and sometimes healers are the only mages. Having the ability to place cards on a co-healer with intention of helping them would make me so happy!

Astrodyne gives stacking buffs depending on the amount of unique seals you have: 1=just mp / 2= mp + haste (cast time speed) / 3 = mp + haste + damage. I think the damage should be the baseline 'reward' and the following ones being just cherries on top of that cake. Just MP on Astrodyne feels even worse than a consolation prize because we don't even need that much... Especially because Dyne comes after a series of Draws, that already replenish MP.

Having the ability to place cards on a co-healer with intention of helping them would make me so happy!

I can only imagine how good it would feel to buff a WHM right before an Afflatus Misery.