Variant/Criterion's direction is worrying

[Valence]

Variant and Criterion were missed opportunities, for a lot of different reasons (rewards, failing to address midcore difficulty, etc), I know, but that's not what I actually disliked the most in that specific content.

In fact, I did like that it was something new and fresh, and that SE went all the way to answer to the demand of getting harder light party content is commendable, I want to get this out of the way. The more they try new things, the less stale the game, even if it fails to meet expectations. I also did like that variants could be done solo so that I can just chill and enjoy it at my own pace (but more on this later). Even for Criterion, it was a change of pace and it was kind of chill to prog and I did like this.

However my big gripe with variants and criterion is something I also despised this with Delubrum, which is ironically often considered a great piece of content (I did like the Delubrum encounters though): the further demolition of the role trinity and identity.

In fact, if you take Variant, it's designed for it to be role agnostic, which fundamentally rubs me the wrong way already because it removes most of the role and identity of healers, tanks etc. Everybody essentially becomes a glorified DPS, and anybody can take defensive mitigation or healing as a duty action. It completely reduces whatever is left of specific roles and duties to fill when you queue up as any job, and makes everybody an interchangeable piece on the board, where everybody can raise, heal or tank. This is literally what pushed me away from playing Variant in any group, and I thank providence that they provided a solo option with the duty actions, which is the only place where they made any sense. Before anybody says that it's like deep dungeons, I'd retort that no, it's not. Role agnosticism in deep dungeons make a lot more sense because deep dungeons aren't about the standard battle content.

And then, if you take criterion, unless it's the savage edition, everybody can raise, and since the fights are essentially designed a bit ala delubrum, it's 110% focused on mechanical execution rather than true party damage, busters and whatnot. Those fights have never felt closer to me than to arbitrary job colours where you only get support and dps roles because partner and spread mechanics are everywhere and require something to base themselves on. Even if more squishy than a tank, I can perfectly tank the bosses for extended amounts of time as a dps or a healer. Now, I understand why they gave raises to everybody, because unlike for 8 man parties, if the healer dies, it's checkmate (unless you have a SMN/RDM). I don't have an alternative answer for this to be honest (maybe a self re-raise duty action on the healer?), but matter of the fact is, it still compounds furthermore the slow deletion of roles and job based mechanics and toolkits that's been plaguing the game for a while.

Last but not least, criterion doubles down on mechanics and tries to be super fancy with overcomplicated mechanics like that pinboard or those samurai shadow clones and whatnot to make up for the lack of body checks. If anything it compounds the issue even further by showing how much of an empty shell everything else is those days, because that's the only thing remaining in the game that can bring any amount of challenge.

[Aco505]

it's 110% focused on mechanical execution rather than true party damage, busters and whatnot.

Not in Savage. My group had to plan mitigation to the letter because of having a WHM and a DRG, a job without a personal defensive. Missing a single Feint or not getting Heart of Corundum on me could easily lead to a death and thus a wipe. It was fun optimizing that though.

You cannot tank bosses for long as you claim either. Some hit harder with autos but have no TBs (first boss of Aloalo) and some hit for a bit less but have very hard hitting TBs (the other two).


My changes for Criterion would be:

- Making the no death run an achievement that you only require to do once (or more if you wish) by either not using any raises or activating the no-death mode at the entrance. This will make farming the weapon glams (assuming we'll still get more rewards) less tedious.

- On Savage, allow the use of either one rezz action or four (one per player) per run. Not allowing players to make at least one mistake for 20+ minutes is punishing and demotivating. It just makes the content harder through artificial difficulty, particularly if the wipe happens on the last boss. Design the encounters with this in mind to avoid cheesing.

- Provide more glams or rewards for Criterion, particularly the normal version. As it is right now, you simply farm a mount, an orchestrion and a frame. They can make Criterion normal a bit easier so that it's accessible to more midcore players.

- Make better use of all Variant bosses. The first common boss and the secret boss are not used in Criterion. I think it'd be a good idea if each Criterion dungeon had two paths with perhaps a common first boss and then different two bosses per path. Adjust rewards and achievements so that both paths are desirable despite possible difficulty differences. This would also allow them to use more varied trash mob encounters.

- Be more creative when it comes to the boss fights. They have shown that they have no problem experimenting more in Criterion compared to Savage. You have to work for your uptime often as a melee player*, for instance, and some of the mechanics of both bosses and trash mobs have been quite refreshing. However, in some other cases it feels like they just keep repeating the same formula so it'd be good if they leaned more in the new direction.

Implementing 2-target boss encounters or phases, for example, could be a thing to bring from Ultimates into Criterion. Enenra, the secret boss from Mt. Rokkon, would have been a perfect fit for this.

*This has also shown how fragile the balance between DPS jobs can be when melee need to work for uptime (although not equally for each melee job) and also how some jobs thrive in this kind of content whereas others do not. It's not a call for homogenization by any means but it's worth mentioning.


On another note, I don't think roles are being deleted due to the nature of Criterion. In fact, you can for instance clear it without melee DPS due to the strength of jobs like MCH or SMN in this content, and can easily be objectively better in some cases due to not having to work for your uptime as much. BLM is absolutely busted here as well.

Jobs that are less reliant on buffing others and deal higher personal damage are simply superior in this kind of content although obviously any comp can clear, even if the difficulty raises.

Furthermore, ranged jobs can help the melee and tank jobs keep more uptime by dealing with specific downtime mechanics like the wind and bubbles in the first boss of Aloalo or the line attack on the minimized healer in the second boss of Rokkon. Therefore, they can actively engage in mechanics beyond the basic tasks.

[Souljacker]

the further demolition of the role trinity and identity.
In fact, if you take Variant, it's designed for it to be role agnostic, which fundamentally rubs me the wrong way already because it removes most of the role and identity of healers, tanks etc. Everybody essentially becomes a glorified DPS, and anybody can take defensive mitigation or healing as a duty action.

But that's what SE wants. SE wants more DPS roles with 'secondary' tasks - we're even getting two new DPS jobs in the new expac even though there are more than enough. But, it's because folks play healers and tanks less. I know I cringe when anyone wants me to bust out the whm; I didn't even bother to gear it this expac because I'm so disgusted with it. Why wouldn't I be? I get the side-eye if I'm not lighting up the DPS charts. It's an *expectation* now that healers are DPS. We don't have support roles - the abilities that XI had for true support roles have been kind of distributed among the DPS roles in this game. That sucks.

So what's the answer?

If they want everyone to be a DPS, then that's what they should do. Everyone is a DPS first, and then has some abilities to help out the party as a secondary task. Then those of us who actually enjoy the lore of being a White Mage and healing, or were maybe hoping for Red Mage to be more than just a rezbot or Bard to be more than... well... whatever the **** it is right now, could finally, once and for all, bury all our hopes.

May the days of balanced parties with jobs that all fulfilled different purposes rest in peace.

[Saraide]

But that's what SE wants. SE wants more DPS roles with 'secondary' tasks - we're even getting two new DPS jobs in the new expac even though there are more than enough. But, it's because folks play healers and tanks less. I know I cringe when anyone wants me to bust out the whm; I didn't even bother to gear it this expac because I'm so disgusted with it. Why wouldn't I be? I get the side-eye if I'm not lighting up the DPS charts. It's an *expectation* now that healers are DPS. We don't have support roles - the abilities that XI had for true support roles have been kind of distributed among the DPS roles in this game. That sucks.

So what's the answer?

If they want everyone to be a DPS, then that's what they should do. Everyone is a DPS first, and then has some abilities to help out the party as a secondary task. Then those of us who actually enjoy the lore of being a White Mage and healing, or were maybe hoping for Red Mage to be more than just a rezbot or Bard to be more than... well... whatever the **** it is right now, could finally, once and for all, bury all our hopes.

May the days of balanced parties with jobs that all fulfilled different purposes rest in peace.

The lore of whm is to devastate the battle field with holy.

[Jeeqbit]

I think they did this for variant dungeons in case you solo them, so that you survive tank busters and stuff. Although with how SE syncs content, I have legit tanked pulls and bosses on a Ninja recently when tanks died (thanks Feint, Shade Shift, Bloodbath, Second Wind).

I don't like the erosion of job identity and uniqueness. But I don't have an actual attachment to the trinity. In fact, I like the Rathalos and Stone Vigil (Hard) fights because of them not caring about tank enmity.

Variant and Criterion were missed opportunities, for a lot of different reasons (rewards, failing to address midcore difficulty, etc)

Regarding midcore difficulty, I don't believe it was ever intended to be that. Players constantly asked to bring "WoW's mythic+" to FFXIV and to have 4-player raid content and this was the response.

In retrospect, it's fair to say it should have a midcore difficulty ie. criterion being in between variant and savage. But I think it is reasonable that the original concept was just "make it small-party raid content like mythic+" and that midcore difficulty wasn't in the original specification.

[Absurdity]

Regarding midcore difficulty, I don't believe it was ever intended to be that. Players constantly asked to bring "WoW's mythic+" to FFXIV and to have 4-player raid content and this was the response.

In retrospect, it's fair to say it should have a midcore difficulty ie. criterion being in between variant and savage. But I think it is reasonable that the original concept was just "make it small-party raid content like mythic+" and that midcore difficulty wasn't in the original specification.

Those two aren't mutually exclusive. Mythic+ is neither raid content nor does it start out particularly difficult. And if they really tried to emulate Mythic+ it basically failed from it's inception, because it focuses on completely different aspects.
I'd argue high deep dungeon floors are closer to M+ than Criterion is.

[Valence]

Not in Savage. My group had to plan mitigation to the letter because of having a WHM and a DRG, a job without a personal defensive. Missing a single Feint or not getting Heart of Corundum on me could easily lead to a death and thus a wipe. It was fun optimizing that though.

You cannot tank bosses for long as you claim either. Some hit harder with autos but have no TBs (first boss of Aloalo) and some hit for a bit less but have very hard hitting TBs (the other two).

This is why I specified, "unless it's savage edition". I haven't quite frankly dealt with savage because I'm not interested. But it probably tends to show that the only content that somewhat makes sense may be the savage version. I don't like it, but it seems to be more coherent with itself.

Also never said you can tank bosses forever, but definitely for a while compared to savage, I've seen that whale being tanked almost from buster to buster which is probably half the fight... And, that's just, you know, just a tiny telling detail in the bigger picture.

- On Savage, allow the use of either one rezz action or four (one per player) per run. Not allowing players to make at least one mistake for 20+ minutes is punishing and demotivating. It just makes the content harder through artificial difficulty, particularly if the wipe happens on the last boss. Design the encounters with this in mind to avoid cheesing.

I mean, that's what ultimates are, so in a way it makes sense to me. I never liked that artificial difficulty, but past a point when you're progging phase 5+ or something, you have to go through 10+ minutes of gruesome fight again and again and again just to have the pleasure to prog for 15 seconds and wipe more where you left the fight. It's artificially inflated difficulty like no other that doesn't respect my time at all, but people seem to like it. I always assumed criterion savage seeked to stroke the same kind of feathers here.

- Provide more glams or rewards for Criterion, particularly the normal version. As it is right now, you simply farm a mount, an orchestrion and a frame. They can make Criterion normal a bit easier so that it's accessible to more midcore players.

Completely not the point of the thread, but I'd say they should make criterion normal comparable to challenging alliance raids and with a roulette behind + appropriate rewards yeah. Midcore content essentially.
If anything criterion normal should probably be closer to variant with randomly chosen paths (without the puzzles) so that it's fitting to a roulette or chainable content.

You know what? Delubrum had similar designs that eroded role identity a lot to my eyes as well, but the encounters were perfectly tuned for midcore content, imo.

some of the mechanics of both bosses and trash mobs have been quite refreshing. However, in some other cases it feels like they just keep repeating the same formula so it'd be good if they leaned more in the new direction.

I really enjoyed the trash. They wouldnt even need to change it much for midcore content. It was pretty neat without being overwhelming for that kind of difficulty.
However I've hated some of the bosses with a passion, but that's just a me problem. It's essentially doubling down on solving puzzles and (often convoluted) visual cues under a handful of seconds which I absolutely hate. Not what I'm looking for in the game period.

On another note, I don't think roles are being deleted due to the nature of Criterion. In fact, you can for instance clear it without melee DPS due to the strength of jobs like MCH or SMN in this content, and can easily be objectively better in some cases due to not having to work for your uptime as much. BLM is absolutely busted here as well.

Isn't that exactly the opposite though, aka deleting role specificity if everything is interchangeable?

Jobs that are less reliant on buffing others and deal higher personal damage are simply superior in this kind of content

Only because the hidden damage buffs provided to buffing jobs in that very content were botched by SE and unable to compete with selfish jobs. How they could mess this up I don't even know.

Furthermore, ranged jobs can help the melee and tank jobs keep more uptime by dealing with specific downtime mechanics like the wind and bubbles in the first boss of Aloalo or the line attack on the minimized healer in the second boss of Rokkon. Therefore, they can actively engage in mechanics beyond the basic tasks.

Sure. I guess. Some things still survive.

[Miki_L]

They design Criterion to be cleared at min ilvl but almost everyone is going in with raid BIS. It's more of an issue of Square not knowing what they want the difficulty of the mode to be and the timing of the content release. Criterion comes out well after the Savage raid tier is over and provides no actual gear upgrades, so the only people who end up doing it are people who have fully cleared Savage and are bored.

The content needs to be a pre-cursor to savage and not the other way around. But the mechanics are easily savage difficulty, because the so-called "Savage" version of the fight has the exact same mechanics and needs to appeal to hardcore players. So of course the "normal" version will have Savage difficulty mechanics as well. If they actually used the three difficulty levels properly, then we can have a properly tuned Savage version that people actually want to do and Criterion can maintain its forgiving nature to help people practice up for the Savage.

[Jeeqbit]

They design Criterion to be cleared at min ilvl but almost everyone is going in with raid BIS. It's more of an issue of Square not knowing what they want the difficulty of the mode to be and the timing of the content release.

The timing is a problem. They can't add meaningful gear upgrades such as tomestone augments if they don't release them alongside the 8-person savage, because by the time they release many people will already have upgraded their gear from 8-person savage.

This is made worse by releasing the third one during the .5 patch, where many people are taking a break from the game, instead of in the first tier of savage, so that it can become a consistent part of raiding and gear progression in the form of extreme > criterion > savage > ultimate. Or, for people who jump into savage immediately, they can do extreme/criterion/savage alongside eachother and get useful gear and augments from all 3.

[Gullis]

Variant is somehow a worse normal dungeon, due to being kept from doing big pulls, and you have to wait for RP walking npc, yapping the same dialouge every time.

12 different endings? more like fight the same miniboss 12 times, and each other boss 4 times each (one path you only fight the same boss 3 times yay). there is one unique hidden boss which is cool, but that's about it.
5 unique bosses, barely more than a normal dungeon. And no, the bosses having 1 new added abilitiy based on the choices you made, doesn't make it unique or new, its still the same fight 90% of the time

The puzzles are a joke aswell, and to call them puzzles is a insult to puzzles. Do you want to press the left or right buttom? so fun and exicting