Please stop alienating the playerbase with job total reworks

[Aravell]

I'm asking sincerely, not to be sarcastic, and recognizing without question that many jobs could use a little extra thought in terms of design, but isn't that the sign of a successful rework?

I mean, from experience with MMORPGs: NO rework is appreciated. If we listen to the MMO fanbase in general, the job needs to retain its identity (which can mean anything and everything; Zofian talks, a little above, of colors for example as being an important identity base. Something I personally don't understand at all); but still undergo changes so that you don't die of boredom after playing the same character for 3 expansions. That's... Complicated. In fact, if we're honest: the original playerbase would certainly grumble no matter what they did, because beyond the design, there's also an attachment to the character that goes far beyond the rational appreciation of a rotation.

In the case of the summoner, it seems to me (and I could be wrong here) that the class is played more now. So it's rather a success from their point of view, regardless of whether the old-timers are angry or not.

I'm not talking about success metrics, I'm saying that none of their reworks were received well by the original playerbase of the job, and that's the problem.

You know how they can get a handle on what changes would make the playerbase of a job happy before they make any changes? Polling the players! Yes! They can actually ask the players what they enjoy about the job before making any changes that would make them unhappy instead of just changing things without saying anything and then saying "Meh, the players will complain anyway".

There were many avenues they could've taken SMN instead of this undercooked abomination. If they learned that the players enjoyed DoTs, they could continue a pseudo-DoT job with the current design by having several aether siphon skills that players have to manage that will slowly fill a gauge until you can summon the flashy primals that we have now. If they learned that the players enjoyed egi management, they could make the summons flashy but have them stay after being summoned so the players can manage their attacks. That's only 2 ways to have the current visuals of SMN while having aspects of what people enjoyed about old SMN, there's never a need to completely delete a playstyle from the game on a whim.

[CelestiCer]

Before anybody chimes in and says "yeah and what about Kaiten" or "what about Repertoire dots on bard", I'll cut it short here: this is NOT the same, even remotely close. The removal of those mechanics on other job expansion adjustments/changes sure HARMED those jobs, but it didn't DESTROY them entirely to make them into something entirely different.

Hey, what the Hail... that stung... My enjoyment doesn't matter until my favorite Job reaches rework levels of absurdity or something D: ? ( meanwhile Blackmage... jk )

I don't throw other Jobs or players wishes and desires for homogenization's / simplifications to stop under the Bus or keeping an ounce of Job identify from being erased, through Reworks or Not ( except Blackmage, big obviously ). Samurai's recent total changes ( or lack there of ) boils down to more then just 1 singular skill removal. Coupled with how Square implemented the changes paired with BS excuses which we debunked up-down-left-right-everyway as it didn't resolve nor tackled any issues Square stated those changes would do till this very day, rubbed players the wrong way. It sows doubt to not have us have faith in future Job Changes - Rework or Not. I really do hope all Jobs get improved in Gameplay... here's to hoping in DawnTrail, mhm.

[Merrigan]

Polling the players!

False good idea. Polling isn't going anywhere :

- I guarantee you, most people won't answer, because those king of "studies" would have to be done on internet... And let's not lie to ourselves : the forum isn't representative of the playerbase.
- SMN main would answer, but not the people who never tried the job. Why the hell would they ? I mean, if you never played it, how are you going to say "yeeeeah, I would prefer to go for the dots" ? You can't.
- Trolls. Just imagine people like Titanmen answering this king of poll *shiver*

To answer your post in general, and not just this tiny bit I just quoted : I'm a little disturbed by the "old fanbase has to be satisfied first" mentality. That's why I don't agree with your choice to ignore success metrics - they matters, even if we don't always like it. Experienced players don't have the priority, and shouldn't have it.

[Aravell]

To answer your post in general, and not just this tiny bit I just quoted : I'm a little disturbed by the "old fanbase has to be satisfied first" mentality. That's why I don't agree with your choice to ignore success metrics - they matters, even if we don't always like it. Experienced players don't have the priority, and shouldn't have it.

And you're suggesting that the older players should be completely stomped on and cast to the side just to attract new players to the job? I can't agree with that at all, that kind of mentality of "metrics above all" disturbs me in turn. Agree to disagree.

Also, you are heavily misrepresenting my point. I never said the old players should be more important than the new players, I said they should be considered when a job is to be changed. Also, your mentality of metrics above everything puts new players above the older players, which goes against your very principles, unless you're fine with older players being placed last in priority, just not new players.

[AmiableApkallu]

There's a difference between using an existing fanbase as a straightjacket, and identifying what truly resonates with that fanbase while trying to explore new directions and draw in new folk.

[Supersnow845]

There's a difference between using an existing fanbase as a straightjacket, and identifying what truly resonates with that fanbase while trying to explore new directions and draw in new folk.

Which would be fair if SMN didn’t nuke the old playerbase from orbit

[ForsakenRoe]

Wonder how much of the SMN complaints would be lesser if the Carbuncle did stuff between summons/the Ruin4/Ruin3 filler in between each 1min burst was replaced with Carbuncle commands to get it to attack, so it feels like it's doing something

Or if Bahamut/Phoenix was 10s instead of 15s, and that extra 5s was used on more Carby stuff, at 2.47-2.50s GCD, that would take us from 2 'filler GCDs' (Ruin4/Ruin3), to 4 (Ruin4, 3 Carby attacks/Ruin3)

Either way, I feel like they've painted themselves into a corner on what they can even add in 7.0 except for random OGCDs, the GCD loop is already packed

[Valence]

In the case of the summoner, it seems to me (and I could be wrong here) that the class is played more now. So it's rather a success from their point of view, regardless of whether the old-timers are angry or not.

It's played more (and even there I'm not sure) because it's braindead. If we start gauging the success of the game by the neurons it takes to play every one of its jobs, then I don't even know why I'm still playing tbh. Maybe I'm just at odds with the bigger part of the community, ShB babies and whatnot. It's what tends to happen when you shift enough the type of audience and gameplay you design in a way. You attract more players that have mutually exclusive needs and likes in the game, and you end up with old timers clashing with the new baseline.

If this continues like this, I'm legitimately considering to just drop raiding altogether. It saddens me, but I'll still have the story to enjoy (and pvp ironically, that savior that came out of nowhere this expansion). As a result i'll feel that the price I pay every month is harder to justify, but it is what it is.

Anyway, in relation to the original post: on the contrary, regular reworks (every two expansions) wouldn't be unwelcome. It would probably mean changing hands, but that's not dramatic in a game where you can play all the jobs. Not accepting this is tantamount to asking for what's currently happening, i.e. the more or less clumsy addition of new stacks in rotations, new powers that have no real impact or synergy (SAM, Shoha) because the overall dynamism of the job has already been drained for ages... And that it should be renewed in depth to find new avenues for improvement.

I have looked through all the job roster to find the niche the old one filled for me as a main job. Never found any. I play bard as a backup because it's fun, but it doesn't tick all the boxes either.

Other jobs in the roster are neat to have variations and try out other things from time to time, but they don't replace a main job. Especially when you consider that there is not only jobs, because 19 sounds like a lot, but there is also subroles, and while I like playing a bit of everything in casual, I can't stand tank, healers (lol healers), melee dps or casters in challenging content. That's just not me, so it leaves me with 3 jobs to choose from.

Maybe I'm too picky? Maybe that's a me problem? It's possible, I know a lot of people that move across all of the roster, and I do envy them.

Hey, what the Hail... that stung... My enjoyment doesn't matter until my favorite Job reaches rework levels of absurdity or something D: ? ( meanwhile Blackmage... jk )

I don't throw other Jobs or players wishes and desires for homogenization's / simplifications to stop under the Bus or keeping an ounce of Job identify from being erased, through Reworks or Not ( except Blackmage, big obviously ). Samurai's recent total changes ( or lack there of ) boils down to more then just 1 singular skill removal. Coupled with how Square implemented the changes paired with BS excuses which we debunked up-down-left-right-everyway as it didn't resolve nor tackled any issues Square stated those changes would do till this very day, rubbed players the wrong way. It sows doubt to not have us have faith in future Job Changes - Rework or Not. I really do hope all Jobs get improved in Gameplay... here's to hoping in DawnTrail, mhm.

Once more, I absolutely hate what they did with kaiten or the bard's repertoire (but they need to change ballad, it feels like shinten spamm on steroids no matter the expansion and my wrist hurts, it's only fun on AoE rain of death). It's part of the whole same issue with butchering jobs in favor of obsessive encounter gameplay, but I still wanted to keep those separate in the OP because it's still different. Be glad they don't rework samurai fully the same way. Kaiten would be the last of your worries if they did, and it's scary to think about.

[Merrigan]

And you're suggesting that the older players should be completely stomped on and cast to the side just to attract new players to the job? I can't agree with that at all, that kind of mentality of "metrics above all" disturbs me in turn. Agree to disagree.

Also, you are heavily misrepresenting my point. I never said the old players should be more important than the new players, I said they should be considered when a job is to be changed. Also, your mentality of metrics above everything puts new players above the older players, which goes against your very principles, unless you're fine with older players being placed last in priority, just not new players.

We're going to go round in circles here, so I won't answer everything (everyone is entitled to their own opinion here, after all, and even if I don't agree with you I can see where you're coming from) but just to finish on one point: on certain aspects, I do feel that "old" players should not be listened to. There are plenty of examples in the history of MMORPGs where listening to players has been a bloody disaster.

[TheDustyOne]

We're going to go round in circles here, so I won't answer everything (everyone is entitled to their own opinion here, after all, and even if I don't agree with you I can see where you're coming from) but just to finish on one point: on certain aspects, I do feel that "old" players should not be listened to. There are plenty of examples in the history of MMORPGs where listening to players has been a bloody disaster.

I highly disagree, it was listening to players that brought this game back from the disaster that was 1.0. It's the older players that gave the game its community to begin with, and understand it better than most players. Alienating old players for the potential (not guarantee) of appeasing new players ends up leaving people bitter.

It ultimately is up to the devs to try and make good decisions around player feedback; typically when it comes to game testing, players are very good at highlighting what is wrong with a game, but not necessarily in offering solutions (not always, it depends on the solution and feasibility of implementing that solution). If we just decide that older players should not be listened to, you lose most of that informed feedback.

That doesn't mean new players don't have important feedback either, they offer a fresher perspective that many vets lost long ago, and as such can point out different problems that are just as valid. But they also lack the experience for why something is implemented the way it is. Either way you can't throw out one side of feedback, both new and old need listening to.