Please stop alienating the playerbase with job total reworks

[Raikai]

Thing is, not just in FFXIV, but any game with this kind of vertical progression... there's only so much you can add across expansions before having to rework stuff, especially on XIV where the combat design is so 'on-leashes'.

Unless they fundamentally change stuff like the 2min meta, damage profile or even improve server responsivity, we may see in the future even jobs deemed 'perfect' like BLM, due to a rework to add new things, because it's unrealistic to expect an expansion that adds absolutely nothing other than just trait upgrades.

[Boblawblah]

tldr; "Please don't do anything some players might not like."

Yoshi-P:

[Jeeqbit]

whenever you decide to rework a job entirely for X or Y reason, please be considerate into what you're about to do.

You really think they aren't considerate? They are in Japan and people in Japan are more considerate than most people in the west. Dealing with people in the west is exhausting tbh. Me this, me that.

When they did the DC split (where Aether was split into Aether and Crystal), they knew it would disrupt friends and FCs and cause some people to quit the game (and it did). But it was also necessary to grow the game. They apologized a lot and expressed a lot of empathy for it, but they had to do it as well. They felt bad enough about it that they overcame the technical hurdles to create DC travel to allow friends to reconnect.

I could believe that some western companies wouldn't think about things like this, but this is SE, a company that is so considerate they will warn people for hurting others' feelings in a dungeon.

if you start turning the job into something entirely different where it could just be a new job, you're essentially deleting a job out of the game

They do have to weigh it up. Take MCH for example - a job that virtually didn't exist it was so unplayed. They redid it like a whole new job for Shadowbringers. Did it upset the few people who played it? Sure, but when weighing it up, they didn't affect the scale next to the amount of people who didn't like the job in Stormblood.

the issues you were trying to fix were deemed too problematic to even try and fix them to begin with.

Sometimes when trying to fix a job you discover that it requires a bigger overhaul. Most likely in trying to solve problems they kept running into other problems and determined it just needed an overhaul.

People always asked to have a job that feels more like an actual summoner of primals, summoning more than a single pitiful egi. I get that you tried to address that and turn it into actually rotating between impressive summons. However, you forgot halfway that a summoner job implies summoning pets that you control. Maybe it didn't in early final fantasy titles sure, but it did in XIV and has since its inception, even if the egis were absolutely underwhelming in that regard.

Many, many people are glad it's an actual Summoner now. It's a very popular job now as well. And although some people like the "constantly out" summons, I personally prefer it like the old final fantasy titles where they are temporary. Regardless, you can glam Carbuncle to make it seem like it's out all the time.

You also deliberately chose to change the gameplay entirely, removing cast times

You still have 3 casts, and Ruin as filler if you didn't delay the GCD enough prior to repeating the rotation.

removing spell choice

You can literally choose earth, wind or fire and at level 90 you can choose between two buttons, such as the ifrit dash or the ifrit casts.

the dot system

Garuda's wind AoE would qualify as a DoT, technically, except it doesn't have 100% uptime.

Did you seriously expect the fans of the job would get behind such a drastic change?

Obviously they didn't. It was intended to make it super popular and "an actual summoner". It was worth it in my opinion because the egis just weren't fitting. Most of the people playing it, did so for the gameplay, not "because it was a summoner", and SE could easily make a new job that is similar to it "for the gameplay".

Did it warrant a full rework though?

Of Machinist? Absolutely yes.

Monk was reworked extensively and I'm sure a lot of people mourn greased lightning stacks.

I personally preferred the old Monk. It became my most-played DPS in Shadowbringers. I didn't like the aesthetic, I just enjoyed playing it a lot for the gameplay, much like I did Bard in Stormblood.

But I have to admit that nobody else could get their head around Monk. It's always been one of the least-played DPS, both for aesthetic reasons and complicatedness reasons. So I can understand it having been reworked.

But quite honestly, it doesn't seem... less-complicated now. So I'm not sure that it helped anything lol. I still don't see any Monks.

[Valence]

You really think they aren't considerate? They are in Japan and people in Japan are more considerate than most people in the west. Dealing with people in the west is exhausting tbh. Me this, me that.

Spare me the cultural clichés.

If anything I have faith in the devs to listen, and I do know they are considerate. Even too much so at times.

They do have to weigh it up. Take MCH for example - a job that virtually didn't exist it was so unplayed. They redid it like a whole new job for Shadowbringers. Did it upset the few people who played it? Sure, but when weighing it up, they didn't affect the scale next to the amount of people who didn't like the job in Stormblood.

I am also not sure respectfully to appreciate your "screw the minority" approach and discarding it like it's just an inevitable fact of life. A game that consistently sends middle fingers to its veterans is threading into weird waters already. When you see the amount of people that are just scared now when any job rework is announced instead of being thrilled (like we were for MCH back then), it's very telling in itself.

Many, many people are glad it's an actual Summoner now.

There is something morally crooked in discarding your biggest fans to make room for more, when there is often alternative solutions or better middle grounds (or new jobs...).

You still have 3 casts, and Ruin as filler if you didn't delay the GCD enough prior to repeating the rotation.
You can literally choose earth, wind or fire and at level 90 you can choose between two buttons, such as the ifrit dash or the ifrit casts.
Garuda's wind AoE would qualify as a DoT, technically, except it doesn't have 100% uptime.

Do I really have to reply to this?

It was intended to make it super popular and "an actual summoner". It was worth it in my opinion because the egis just weren't fitting. Most of the people playing it, did so for the gameplay, not "because it was a summoner", and SE could easily make a new job that is similar to it "for the gameplay".

Having an actual summoner is mutually exclusive with having good gameplay?

But quite honestly, it doesn't seem... less-complicated now. So I'm not sure that it helped anything lol. I still don't see any Monks.

Some jobs having less numbers and being more niche is not dirty. We constantly have to deal with absolute tools that don't even play the job that will always show up and argue for it to be changed under the guise that it's not played enough.

[LilimoLimomo]

Obviously it's subjective, but I love the Summoner change. DoTs aren't part of my summoner fantasy, and I don't need to have absolute control over a pet because that has rarely been part of Summoning in FF games. Now the class is frequently rotating through flashy summons and the strategy comes from determining the order, such that the level 90 experience is chef's kiss. Before I didn't like Summoner because it didn't feel like a Summoner, and now I love Summoner because it feels like a Summoner.

If they can do for other classes what they did for Summoner, I'd be down.

That said, different strokes for different folks.

[VentVanitas]

what about pre-EW SMN wasn't "Summoner" enough, though? why does it have to fall more in line with some arbitrary definition of what a "real" Summoner is? is it really that bad for XIV to have its own unique take on a Summoner job?

if you enjoy it good for you, but I personally don't think it should have come at the cost of eradicating an entirely unique playstyle from the whole game and leaving players like me with nothing to go to. especially when EW SMN itself doesn't even bring anything new or unique to the table and a lot of the elements that people praise EW SMN for are things that already existed in previous versions.

[ty_taurus]

what about pre-EW SMN wasn't "Summoner" enough, though? why does it have to fall more in line with some arbitrary definition of what a "real" Summoner is? is it really that bad for XIV to have its own unique take on a Summoner job?

if you enjoy it good for you, but I personally don't think it should have come at the cost of eradicating an entirely unique playstyle from the whole game and leaving players like me with nothing to go to. especially when EW SMN itself doesn't even bring anything new or unique to the table and a lot of the elements that people praise EW SMN for are things that already existed in previous versions.

From a gameplay standpoint, new Summoner is hilariously under designed and is insulting to former Summoner mains. But from a thematic standpoint, I vastly prefer the job's new aesthetic direction. FFXIV is its own game, but is still deeply connected with the series proper, and for a lot of people, the identity of a job's gameplay is extremely important. Summoner has always struggled to feel like a proper representation of the Summoner job from the series, which is otherwise one of the most prominent in terms of its identity. Summons were a tacky DOT with ugly, underwhelming representations of iconic Final Fantasy characters--the summons themselves.

This is not to say that I feel the old Summoner's gameplay was bad or didn't deserve to exist. I just don't know why we called that job "Summoner" at all. I would've just called that job "Arcanist" and leave "Summoner" as an available concept that could be explored later instead. That way the original playstyle could be preserved while leaving the door open for a job that would better represent the Summoner namesake for players who like the identity of Summoner. (Something better than the attrocity that we got in Endwalker no less). I'd say the same for Bard as well.

"Bard" is not a Bard. It's something else, and I would rather call it something else so that a real Bard could exist in the future.

[VentVanitas]

This is not to say that I feel the old Summoner's gameplay was bad or didn't deserve to exist. I just don't know why we called that job "Summoner" at all. I would've just called that job "Arcanist" and leave "Summoner" as an available concept that could be explored later instead. That way the original playstyle could be preserved while leaving the door open for a job that would better represent the Summoner namesake for players who like the identity of Summoner. (Something better than the attrocity that we got in Endwalker no less). I'd say the same for Bard as well.

identity is important sure, but taking it way too far into the other direction and making a job a one-trick pony that revolves entirely around a singular gimmick is just as stupid, in my opinion. it's why I hate modern SCH or WHM's aesthetic.

[ty_taurus]

identity is important sure, but taking it way too far into the other direction and making a job a one-trick pony that revolves entirely around a singular gimmick is just as stupid, in my opinion. it's why I hate modern SCH or WHM's aesthetic.

I have no idea what Scholar's identity is supposed to be.

It has dark magic: Ruin, Broil, Bio, Miasma, Shadowflare, Energy Drain
It has "techno" magic: Art of War, Chain Stratagem, Recitation, Sacred Soil
It has a faerie companion with a butterfly motif: Eos, Fey Blessing, Whispering Dawn, Expedient (which is somehow not associated with the faerie)
It has its own generic, sparkly healing magic independent of the faerie: Indomitability, Adloquium, Succor, Protraction
It has an angel motif with Eos turning into Seraph: LB3 Angel Feathers, Summon Seraph, etc.

It feels thematically disjointed to me, so I don't really see that as a one-trick pony.

[Supersnow845]

identity is important sure, but taking it way too far into the other direction and making a job a one-trick pony that revolves entirely around a singular gimmick is just as stupid, in my opinion. it's why I hate modern SCH or WHM's aesthetic.

I’m confused on how you have that idea on SCH, it’s easy the most visually diverse healer and it has the widest range on the diversity of heals, does it really have a visual aesthetic