Yay, i get to play my job with no changes for another 2+ years...

[strawberrycake]

We watched and listened to entirely two different panels if that was your take-away from what Yoshida said.

Because i heard: "we want to make content more challenging and rewarding"

Has it even occured to folk that Jobs aren't the problem? but the content itself???

If the content isn't challenging and it's instead mundane and repetitive, then of course the job you play is going to feel terrible, because the content isn't forcing you to think creatively and make decisions on that job you normally wouldn't make.

Yoshida focusing on the content itself is what we actually need; because jobs get tweaked during patches all the time; it's the content that needs to be reworked.

The Job tweaks during an expansion are never major enough to make a massive difference, and in the case of EW it has def been the jobs, even within fun savage content a lot of the jobs feels very lack luster.

[Supersnow845]

We watched and listened to entirely two different panels if that was your take-away from what Yoshida said.

Because i heard: "we want to make content more challenging and rewarding"

Has it even occured to folk that Jobs aren't the problem? but the content itself???

If the content isn't challenging and it's instead mundane and repetitive, then of course the job you play is going to feel terrible, because the content isn't forcing you to think creatively and make decisions on that job you normally wouldn't make.

Yoshida focusing on the content itself is what we actually need; because jobs get tweaked during patches all the time; it's the content that needs to be reworked.

The jobs have no on the fly decision making as they are because they are so incredibly static

The only job that has a sense of remote choice left is BLM organising when to use its instacasts, the rest it doesn’t matter what hat the content throws at you because there is only one way to play the job (this extends to both casual and high end content)

The content needs to be better but the jobs are incredibly stale and need to be fixed, healers are a perfect example of this, old content, new content, casual content, high end content healers are boring and stale because the jobs are fundamentally flawed

Focusing everything on the content just leads to our current situation we are in now

[ty_taurus]

We watched and listened to entirely two different panels if that was your take-away from what Yoshida said.

Because i heard: "we want to make content more challenging and rewarding"

Has it even occured to folk that Jobs aren't the problem? but the content itself???

If the content isn't challenging and it's instead mundane and repetitive, then of course the job you play is going to feel terrible, because the content isn't forcing you to think creatively and make decisions on that job you normally wouldn't make.

Yoshida focusing on the content itself is what we actually need; because jobs get tweaked during patches all the time; it's the content that needs to be reworked.

With content, FFXIV has a very wide variety of types of content ranging from solo MSQ instances to dungeons to extreme trials to savage raids and to alternative combat experiences like deep dungeons or field operations. Each example here as well as all other types of content has a specific expectation of the player that must be met. Depending on the skill of the player, some content will undoubtably be too easy on its own and not be sufficiently entertaining. Players who do savage, for example, are going to have a hard time finding the difficulty of dungeons entertaining by their own merit, because the environment is so much slower. For other players, that might be totally fine and adequately challenging because their experience with the game is more limited.

Job gameplay, on the other hand, has the unique quality of having flexible requirements. Because unlike combat mechanics, your job's mechanics are not pass/fail. In nearly every corner of FFXIV's content, it doesn't matter how perfectly or how poorly you perform your job's mechanics, because most fights only care about the mechanics of the fight itself. In other words, job complexity offers the unique advantage of allowing you to meet it at whatever threshold you are willing to strive for, provided the job in question offers enough complexity for one to actually pursue. Fights cannot do this because they do not have optional mechanics that can be ignored by someone less experienced or simply less interested in challenging their gameplay.

Having content that is less demanding, but jobs that are easy to play as a standard level, yet offer more complex elements in order to master offers a much wider range of satisfying engagement for players of varying skill levels.

Bushnell's Law: "The best video games are easy to play but difficult to master." Job design allows that concept to apply to all areas of the game. Content design restricts that concept only to content designed for difficulty.

[ASkellington]

Has it even occured to folk that Jobs aren't the problem? but the content itself???

If the content isn't challenging and it's instead mundane and repetitive, then of course the job you play is going to feel terrible, because the content isn't forcing you to think creatively and make decisions on that job you normally wouldn't make.

Yoshida focusing on the content itself is what we actually need; because jobs get tweaked during patches all the time; it's the content that needs to be reworked.

So say they do make content that "forces me to think creatively". They won't, we both know this, but I'll humor you.

In my job/class where are the tools for me to USE creatively?

Speaking solely for AST -

Synastry doesn't even WORK on Aspected Benefic outside of the intial heal. It doesn't apply the HoT at all.
Macrocosmos/Earthly Star/Exaltation while having a delayed component are pretty much - set at X time for damage to be dealt and then either detonate manually or automaticall.
Neutral Sect ONLY WORKS FOR GCD HEALS, crap I'm not even touching because the devs couldn't be ARSED to make it work like Nocturnal Sect they removed so it could work with Celestial Intersection, Celestial Opposition, and Collective Unconciousness.

Do those sound like a CONTENT or a JOB problem to you?

And mind you, those aren't MINOR tweaks either.

And its not just AST or even the healer role in general that has these issues.

So yes, jobs ARE a problem.

BOTH need to be addressed. Period.

[Aravell]

I think the easiest way to explain it is this:

Let's say you have an old beat-up junk of a car. Does it matter whether you drive that car on a regular road (dungeons) or an F1 circuit (savage)? Does that car feel better to drive on the F1 circuit? It's still the same car.

That's how jobs are. You drive the exact same car in all roads, so if the car itself doesn't feel good to drive, then the road you choose to drive on doesn't matter at all.

[Lyth]

Bushnell's Law: "The best video games are easy to play but difficult to master." Job design allows that concept to apply to all areas of the game. Content design restricts that concept only to content designed for difficulty.

What you're describing actually occurs at the intersection of job design and fight design. There is no way that you're going to make target dummy conditions 'difficult to master'.

[Saraide]

We watched and listened to entirely two different panels if that was your take-away from what Yoshida said.

Because i heard: "we want to make content more challenging and rewarding"

Has it even occured to folk that Jobs aren't the problem? but the content itself???

It has occured to folk and they realized that the encounter design is not the sole issue.

If the content isn't challenging and it's instead mundane and repetitive, then of course the job you play is going to feel terrible, because the content isn't forcing you to think creatively and make decisions on that job you normally wouldn't make.

That's not true though. I will have vastly more fun playing red mage in casual content like the rightfully criticized EW araids than on white mage. DPS and tanks retain so much more of their fun in normal mode content.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

[...]Yoshida focusing on the content itself is what we actually need; because jobs get tweaked during patches all the time; it's the content that needs to be reworked.

IMHO this statement only makes sense if one is viewing through a Tank/DPS-main lenses.

Yes, contents do need some work to an extent. I think that much is true for jobs like tanks & some red dpses roles. For example, gigantic hitboxes rendering the advantages of full mobility & being able to attack from afar a moot to ranged, it makes one question why were they sentenced to output less despite melees no longer needing to work for uptime. Then, there exists bosses turning around on its own/recentering/repositioning while ignoring tanks to do their mechanic(s), rendering tanks having less purpose in encounters except being blue dpses. Tank swaps in normal content? Can't have that too much of that, too apparently. There are more to be listed, but yes, they should rectify these.

On the other hand, that statement would never make sense to green dpses mains because we literally have to pray we'll get paired with bunch of clownfest in some random, obscure duties (usually Ivalice/NieR raids) to actually get some use of many of ours excessive healing buttons that's been collecting dusts because we rarely needed to use them. Heck, even if those obscure duties pop, if everybody are good at their game, all we're doing is hoping whichever hotkey we've assigned our Glaroilficosis to won't break from just how many times we press it. So where do we have to go from here? Are we deliberately sentenced to only make DF queue pop faster?

Tldr; Both side NEEDS attention.

[Supersnow845]

Healers are so badly designed that in the single hardest and most “engaging” pieces of content in the game (the 5 ultimates and the 3 ultimate light savages) still have you spend more time pressing one button than every other button put together

SAM mains lose their minds that after Kaiten got deleted shinten is now just shy of 20% of your button presses while broil 4 is on average 80% of the total casts of a SCH and even the most clown fiesta run it won’t drop below 60%

There is physically no way to make healers work by changing the engagement of the encounter design

[Merrigan]

SAM mains lose their minds that after Kaiten got deleted shinten is now just shy of 20% of your button presses

Unpopular opinion perhaps: but I don't see what the problem is with Shinten. It has, in fact, nothing to do with healer problems, because Shinten is an OGCD combined with resource management. It has absolutely nothing to do with the repetitive nature of healers. Even when you're spamming Shinten, there's still the main "rotation" to perform, which brings variation. Shinten just adds a welcome dynamism.

As for the fact that the disappearance of kaiten somewhat simplifies resource management, it's true; but even if it means bringing in additional management, I sincerely think that there was much, much more interesting than kaiten (whose disappearance went over my head, personally). Third Eye, for example, would need to be reworked; offering a synergy between a "defensive" button and the dps you could get is a very good idea.