FFXIV needs to stop accommodating Solo Players

[ty_taurus]

I get the feeling that what some people want is a design that necessitates certain jobs working together to clear content, which is all fine and good until content becomes outdated and new players cannot clear because no one is running those things anymore. Even with the duty finder queueing for something that is old and not in one of the more commonly run roulettes can mean a queue of an hour or so. Adding to that the restriction of jobs having to play in sync with each other to even be functional in said content means that if the queue fills and the older players participating don't remember how to coordinate this dungeon or don't want to bother with it then they will just leave and the new player is left to try and queue again. This will probably also lean even heavier into a META where if you are not one of the META jobs this patch cycle you might as well not even bother playing, your job will be rejected from even normal dungeon queues because you do not have the most favorable interactions with other jobs that make the content an easy fast run.

I never understand where this fear comes from. "Content becomes outdated and new players cannot clear because no one is running those things anymore." The only example of that we see is DR and Rival Wings. Everything else has either roulettes to supply that content with players reclearing for other rewards, or a dedicated community that continues to run that content regularly. Like, Eureka and Bozja are not dead. They're not as active as they were at launch day, but you can log in at pretty much any time of the day and find people there. DR's flaw is being a very specific piece of content with little to gain from running and no way of accessing it through any kind of roulette. And even that's not fully dead because there are absolutely communities that continue to run it that a new player can access.

As for meta jobs... That whole "if you're not one of the meta jobs this patch, you might as well not even bother playing..." Have you ever actually raided in FFXIV? Because you could not be more off-base with how the meta has existed throughout this games lifespan. Look at Stormblood where you had things like piercing damage comps. This meta was pretty much just for world first races and speed clear teams. No PF worth its salt restricted any job from joining, and the maybe 4 of them that did because they read on some BS gaming article that DRG + BRD was "Mandatory" and proceeded to treat that as gospel were seen as jokes and not worth joining anyway.

These fears are baseless, especially to the extent that people are asking.

[Suniva]

When I run a dungeon via Duty Finder, you can tell me all you want that I'm "cooperating" with three other people, and it might even fit the dictionary definition, but it still feels like solo content half the time because there's no real "coordination." As long as the tank follows the tank script, the healer follows the healer script, and the DPS push buttons, the job gets done. Everyone I partied up with is forgettable and (literally) replaceable.

Thank you. This statement makes sense and I can see why many are feeling that particular way, I appreciate you clarifying. But as for the second part of your statement, I'd argue that because the roles are so defined, as has been the case for decades now when it comes to an MMO that follows the trinity of tank, dps, healer, that the coordination is still inherently there, but people understand what their roles are so well nowadays that we take it for granted. Hence why people are left feeling the way they do. I think this is a problem for all older MMO's truth be told. The community gets so used to the status quo that they clamour for something new to spice things up. The game already has savage and ultimate content for those that want more of a challenge, and we all agree that roulettes are easy to accomplish, mainly because it is a daily activity for gathering your tomes for the week.

So, what ideas might you have to add to the game to make things not feel as they do? More challenging 4 man content? Also, what's to stop players from coming full circle even if this more "challenging" content is added? After years of the same thing, won't players be left feeling as they are now?

[ty_taurus]

Thank you. This statement makes sense and I can see why many are feeling that particular way, I appreciate you clarifying. But as for the second part of your statement, I'd argue that because the roles are so defined, as has been the case for decades now when it comes to an MMO that follows the trinity of tank, dps, healer, that the coordination is still inherently there, but people understand what their roles are so well nowadays that we take it for granted. Hence why people are left feeling the way they do. I think this is a problem for all older MMO's truth be told. The community gets so used to the status quo that they clamour for something new to spice things up. The game already has savage and ultimate content for those that want more of a challenge, and we all agree that roulettes are easy to accomplish, mainly because it is a daily activity for gathering your tomes for the week.

So, what ideas might you have to add to the game to make things not feel as they do? More challenging 4 man content? Also, what's to stop players from coming full circle even if this more "challenging" content is added? After years of the same thing, won't players be left feeling as they are now?

What about simply making harder mechanics with less punishing consequences? I don't just mean non lethal damage, but what if some mechanics don't deal damage if you fail them, but inflict status effects instead--things that aren't a death sentence but impede your damage. Damage which I might add also doesn't matter outside of Extreme and beyond anyway. Like maybe you suffer paralysis, toad, or maybe you make it more interactive, like being trapped in a cage that you have to break out of before you can rejoin the fight.

[Suniva]

Ahh ty_taurus, thanks for soloing an 80 instance to prove it can be done. I have no idea why anyone would play the game like that other than for a challenge since it is not the optimal way to play. As I said in another post of mine, regardless if it can be done solo, there is no denying that cooperating with the 3 others in your party leads to you completing the dungeon faster, which the ultimate goal is completion of the dungeon for tomes. But like AmiableApkallu stated, it doesn't matter what the definition of the words are when people are left feeling the way that they do.

As for your idea, let's say it gets implemented. After years of doing content with those mechanics, what's to stop the community from coming right back around and starting this whole process again? It is a never ending cycle of trying to implement different things to keep the audience engaged, which is why we see fights using mechanics we are all familiar with, but in different sequences. Sure, more can be done, and sometimes something new gets added, but after a while even that something new will become stale and people will go right back to saying that the game needs something new. Hopefully with Dawntrail and with what Yoshi P stated, there may be some changes that get implemented that make the game feel less like what it does now, but we have to wait and see if those changes do in fact come, and how long the community will be satiated before we are right back here again.

Right now we have what we have in game and even the OP of this thread seems to have given up on it since it has sort of been derailed (Kind of OP's fault since they were so incredibly vague despite others attempting to get them to be more specific) into "Stop Accomdating solo players" to people expressing their "feelings" on why they feels like the game is soloable and wanting more, let's say, dynamic content. I do see this as an unending issue that can never be fully rectified however.

[AmiableApkallu]

I think this is a problem for all older MMO's truth be told. The community gets so used to the status quo that they clamour for something new to spice things up. The game already has savage and ultimate content for those that want more of a challenge, and we all agree that roulettes are easy to accomplish, mainly because it is a daily activity for gathering your tomes for the week.

So, what ideas might you have to add to the game to make things not feel as they do? More challenging 4 man content? Also, what's to stop players from coming full circle even if this more "challenging" content is added? After years of the same thing, won't players be left feeling as they are now?

I'm not talking about whether content feels challenging, or whether it feels fresh when I run it for the 247th time.

I'm talking about whether it feels like I'm running it with other people. Modern dungeons and fights have lost all those little moments where I'm reminded that people are variable and make choices -- moments that existed independent of tanks knowing how to old aggro, healers knowing how to push a heal button, and DPS knowing how to push a damage button.

[Suniva]

I'm talking about whether it feels like I'm running it with other people. Modern dungeons and fights have lost all those little moments where I'm reminded that people are variable and make choices -- moments that existed independent of tanks knowing how to old aggro, healers knowing how to push a heal button, and DPS knowing how to push a damage button.

For bread-and-butter Duty Finder-able content, I would aim to make it feel like you're playing with other players without necessarily requiring any more communication than running in a direction and jumping up and down.

One way we get there is with a return of mechanics where somebody needs to act, but it doesn't matter exactly who. For example, picking up fire sand and hitting the detonator in Copperbell Mines. Or swatting away the bombs in A5N. Moments where I wonder how the party will self-organize.

Another way we get there is with a return to mechanics where you notice the effects of another player's choice. Where is someone going to drop that AoE, or take that flare? Where is that other alliance going to aim the death laser? Moments where someone else's choice might make my life… interesting.

Sounds like you want fights to be more dynamic. What instance did I run the other day, I believe it was vanaspati. At the end where you have the disruption move that blows up the platform and you have to dodge the opposite shape that appears on your screen and the circle attack. I was healing and we had a sprout that refused to spread out and their lack of awareness ended up causing me to die. So, is that what you're talking about, more fights like that where player agency actually matters? (Unless you have a warrior tank since they are incredibly broken right now).

[ty_taurus]

Snip

The point isn't that people can just spend 80 minutes soloing a dungeon. It's that the mechanics are so relaxed that someone can solo the dungeon, even if it takes significantly longer to do so. Obviously any content that doesn't scale to the number of players will inherently go quicker with more people regardless of whether or not more people are required. I did that test in a response to what you had asked, if it was possible to effectively solo casual content like a dungeon as just a healer. Based on what you were responding to, the implication of your statement was that regardless of how easy the content is, you still depend on other players to clear it. But my challenge run as well as that video series I shared prove the opposite. And the thing is, I ran that dungeon synched. You can still clear content unsynched for quest progression, so you can absolutely just over level and solo dungeons in a far more reasonable amount of time anyway.

But Apkallu's point is where I think the most substantial point stands. The standard experience feels like you're going through the same hallway simulator adjacent to 3 other people, not necessarily that you're working with them to reach the end. And niether the mechanics nor the content's lack of need for the role system are have helped that in recent years.

I'm not sure if I understand what you're saying in your second paragraph, but it sounds like you're proposing nihilistic defeatism. "Even if the next expansion changes, the expansion after could just go back to this" So I guess we should just never do anything about the game ever, because even if changes are positive, those positive changes won't matter because they'll inevitably be subverted by worse changes later. Wasn't that literally what the Endwalker Story stood in opposition to?

As far as the topic is concerned, I want to stress that for the most part, there has not been agitation in the face of solo player content prior to Endwalker. Why? It goes back to a post I made a few pages earlier. There's nothing wrong with supporting solo play and fostering an environment that allows solo play to be an option. I would argue that it's a great thing, but it should not come at the cost of the multiplayer aspects of the game, because this is a "massively multiplayer" online RPG. The multiplayer is a part of the point. And Endwalker has felt like an expansion where mutliplayer elements were sacrificed for solo play.

[ty_taurus]

Sounds like you want fights to be more dynamic. What instance did I run the other day, I believe it was vanaspati. At the end where you have the disruption move that blows up the platform and you have to dodge the opposite shape that appears on your screen and the circle attack. I was healing and we had a sprout that refused to spread out and their lack of awareness ended up causing me to die. So, is that what you're talking about, more fights like that where player agency actually matters? (Unless you have a warrior tank since they are incredibly broken right now).

Here are some examples of mechanics that he's talking about in regards to wanting to feel like you are working with other people:

- Two role orbs spawn and hunt down either the DPS or the supports (tank and healer). If they reach that player, they explode, deal a decent chunk of damage to the whole party, and paralyze the entire party which can be Esuna'd. If a player of the opposite role (DPS or Support) pops the orb before it reaches the target, only they take the damage and there is no paralysis.

- Two adds spawn on each side of the arena. Both cannot be damaged and will stick around for 30 seconds before going away. Each will cast Disease 4 times, cycling through each member of the party, hitting them twice. Disease will make the other mechanic much harder do to the reduction in movement speed and healing. Both these adds can be put to Sleep by Repose or Sleep, which will last long enough to prevent them from debuffing the party during that mechanic. You need a healer or caster DPS to sleep them, or you'll take a lot of extra damage during the rest of the mechanic.

- A boss fills the room with toxic gas and there's a force field generator that creates a small safe zone from the heavy DOT around the arena. Adds will spawn to try and destroy it, but one party member can pick it up and keep it away from the adds, but this also causes the safe zone to move with them. (Hi there, Crystal Chronicles)

[Suniva]

Snip

I believe you misunderstood my second paragraph. I was not saying, "Even if the next expansion changes, the expansion after could just go back to this". I was saying that even if your changes get implemented, what is to stop the community from coming back around again and complaining about the content being as it is now and by now? I mean them complaining that they feel like the content is, as you said, relaxed. I never imagined anyone would go out and do it just to prove a point, as you did, simply because in my frame of thinking, and I'm sorry if this wasn't clarified initially, but even IF you can solo it, it is more ideal to do it as a group because you complete the objective faster. Again, in your more recent post, you have clarified that that wasn't the point to begin with and I will admit that is what I was stuck on, so I thank you for your clarification.

As for for the changes AmiableApkallu has recently shared, and you (I had didn't see your post until I posted my own) I agree with his and yours perspective. More dynamic fights would make it feel more engaging and hopefully less relaxed, as you have put it. I do apologize if it has taken me a while to understand your perspectives, but I believe I can clearly see where you guys are coming from. If this is what the OP was initially trying to convey, then I do hope that the FF team, if they are even monitoring this thread, do take your ideas to heart.

[ty_taurus]

I believe you misunderstood my second paragraph. I was not saying, "Even if the next expansion changes, the expansion after could just go back to this". I was saying that even if your changes get implemented, what is to stop the community from coming back around again and complaining about the content being as it is now and by now? I mean them complaining that they feel like the content is, as you said, relaxed. I never imagined anyone would go out and do it just to prove a point, as you did, simply because in my frame of thinking, and I'm sorry if this wasn't clarified initially, but even IF you can solo it, it is more ideal to do it as a group because you complete the objective faster. Again, in your more recent post, you have clarified that that wasn't the point to begin with and I will admit that is what I was stuck on, so I thank you for your clarification.

As for for the changes AmiableApkallu has recently shared, and you (I had didn't see your post until I posted my own) I agree with his and yours perspective. More dynamic fights would make it feel more engaging and hopefully less relaxed, as you have put it. I do apologize if it has taken me a while to understand your perspectives, but I believe I can clearly see where you guys are coming from and do hope that the FF team, if they are even monitoring this thread, do take your ideas to heart.

Well, we have seen how over the years, this tension around the overall simplicity of the game has grown as the game became more simple. Naturally, one would expect that if the future of FFXIV undid some of that simplicity, criticism of said simplicity would also lessen over time. Let's say DT makes adjustments based on a lot of the repeated feedback we see here. How the community responses will of course depend on how that feedback is addressed and to what extent. There may be overall praise, or you might have a more bittersweet reception where the change is appreciated but isn't enough to address the issues being brought up.

What we can say is that regularly, there is a point in time of FFXIV's history where the balance between simplicity and complexity is concidered to be the best of both worlds, and that point is Stormblood. Time and time again do people reference Stormblood as a happy medium between not too tough and not too easy. There's enough depth to sink your teeth into if you're experienced, but not so much that it felt overwhelming if you're a newcomer or novice. That does not mean just redo Stormblood and stay there, but if the dev team saw that feedback and sought to make DT have that level of balance, you'd probably get the healthiest response from the largest amount of people. Of course, how exactly we reach that balance matters as well, as I'm sure there are ways we could go about it that wouldn't be well received.