Uncapped AoE is ruining PvP Frontline/Rival Wings

[HyperiusUltima]

This has been discussed many a time - from DRK, to AST, to DRG, to SMN.

It has been talked to death, but I'm bringing it up again because it needs to be highlighted: AOE IS KILLING PvP.

And sure, you can say "Oh, who cares about PvP? It's just bad game mode." Well, the problem with PvP is that majority of people queue into Frontline Roulette only to get flavor of the day but it actually leaves bad tastes in a majority of people's mouths, thus turning them away from the game mode because "it's too hard" or "I can't play".

But back to the matter, AoE needs to be hard capped in PvP. We've had this issue for how long? Since CC became a thing? Let's go over the factors that are causing people more frustration than enjoyment with the game mode.

DRK - Most notorious for group CC and a surprisingly 15y Draw-in and Bind combo that essentially seals your doom the moment you stack 4 DRKs or even just 2. Guarding against this is usually the answer, but when you have at least an AST and a SMN in the back you literally can nuke the entire team just with ONE good draw-in. It's dumb, and I know it's set for CC - but when it's in Frontline? You essentially have a job that's insanely strong when it comes to 24v24v24; heck, even 24v24 winds up the same way!

DRG - How many times are you going to keep buffing this job? Because the only thing I've ever seen from patch notes are BUFFS. NERF IT. Their LB is the strongest in all of PvP because not only does it provide a GIGANTIC shield for no reason, you also deal 80% or more of your target's HP - in an AOE. If that's not enough, let's also add in buffs! When this job is buffed, that damage becomes multiplicative(*insert Battle High and Soaring here*), and when it's under even one of those? You can one-shot and entire team. If the problem is DRG not being able to get out, then maybe they shouldn't force Elusive Jump into a Burst Rotation in the first place and make Wyrmwind Thrust its own button instead of buffing the **** out of the job.

SMN - I like the job. I may not play it, but I like how it's designed. It has CC, it has a burst rotation, and on top of that it has the choice of Damage Reduction Phoenix or big bad Bahamut damage. The only problem is when you stack these jobs in a party. Having 2/3 SMNs is enough to nuke an entire Alliance, flat out - 2 if you have Soaring/Battle High.

AST - While not bad on the surface, the problem with this job is again, uncapped AoE - as is the running theme here. Macrocosmos not only stacks a portion of damage, you also DEAL damage when you use it - and yes, while the dreaded DRK/AST/AST/AST combo is something everyone dreads in Crystal because of its ridiculous nuking potential, but what's more is their LB is really strong - making their Nuking potential even higher while NERFING the entire enemy. What's more, they provide a lot of buffs to the group with their cards, essentially ranging from Damage Reduction, Damage, and Movement Speed+Haste. They're a very versatile healer for what they do since they also can provide shields.

Also, there is Battle High scaling that is causing a lot of issues for people. Melee sometimes take an entire alliance to take down(staring at you NIN), while as SMN or AST you essentially get to nuke an entire party for free if you get the chance. It's not as bad with Soaring, but it's horrible with Battle High. If anything, you reduce Melee's DR and they need to have Tanks to enable engagements(who have high DR), though most of that is relegated to DRK just pulling everyone in. You cap AoE at 5, you don't run into major problems where PvP is essentially an AoE fest - you change it into how many people are getting hit by the same AoE(which is still an advantage, mind, but it doesn't really change anything in the long run due to damage scaling). Edit: OH. There's one more I forgot.

WHM - Ah yes. I forgot about this one. Fast LB that is an AoE Line that causes a whole Stun for 3s. It's very strong, and scales very high with Battle High/Soaring. They nerfed how often it comes up, but it's still a strong tool that is uncapped - at a giant range at that.

So, there you have it: Those are the *five* biggest offenders right now, and we need a way for people to understand how to counter them proper(DRK having nearly 0 Counterplay most of the time due to Draw-in, but it's not impossible to stop one).

[4clubbedace]

CC was always the serious game mode, that will always take balance priority

[IDontPetLalas]

OP has intertwined multiple issues in one post, although I have said for awhile that AOE skilled should be capped in FL and pointing at specific jobs isn't the issue,

At present, part of the problem is even pointed out in their post "we need a way for people to understand how to counter them"- and before someone speaks up - yes- there is still an advantage that a good premade will have.

That's also why I kind of don't see some things as balance issues - such as- why would you see that there's a need for change when you see comments like " as AST you essentially get to nuke an entire party for free if you get the chance" - well that's quite logical, isn't it? Whereas a smart party simply doesn't allow that to happen - and as a job that is squishy, when focussed they're down. Also, I disagree with the doom-saying, saying seeing 2 DRKs "seals your doom" is pure hyperbole. No, it doesn't, at all. Doesn't mean that the AOE adjustment shouldn't apply- although DRK should get some compensation.

I would find it more plausible that the people who are saying that "it's too hard" have little or no PVP experience and/or motivation to PvP and don't expect that they'll actually have to develop some coordination and effort to win. That doesn't mean, at all, that I wouldn't want some changes to FL- nor does it mean that I'm criticizing them in any way.

[Eastwall]

I also have been complaining about this for awhile now... I am starting to think their spaghetti code can't handle it. That's Why they use damage modifier instead of cap targets to 5.
The only thing l can say is that at least l don't have to win to get that fat roulette xp which only gaius can beat.

[Valence]

I know that's not the core of the OP, but since you mentioned DRG's Skyshatter shield, this thing is just stupid, and I can't believe they even buffed it once.

Meanwhile on DNC I live with my choices, if I commit to a LB, I'm squishier, I'm locked in place for eons, I'm not high untargetable in the sky, and I certainly don't have a gigantic shield to save my ass. Oh and yeah, I also have to make sure my allies actually do the job else my LB is wasted.

[Mawlzy]

I also have been complaining about this for awhile now... I am starting to think their spaghetti code can't handle it. That's Why they use damage modifier instead of cap targets to 5.
The only thing l can say is that at least l don't have to win to get that fat roulette xp which only gaius can beat.

Hadn't thought about that, but it's likely a major factor. DR is a preset constant, thus simple. Capping targets to 5 would likely need to snapshot, calculate the distance of all enemies, then select the nearest 5, then mark all others immune. In principle that's trivial, of course, but in the context of everything else that is going on it might be too much.

[Cidel]

I know that's not the core of the OP, but since you mentioned DRG's Skyshatter shield, this thing is just stupid, and I can't believe they even buffed it once.

Meanwhile on DNC I live with my choices, if I commit to a LB, I'm squishier, I'm locked in place for eons, I'm not high untargetable in the sky, and I certainly don't have a gigantic shield to save my ass. Oh and yeah, I also have to make sure my allies actually do the job else my LB is wasted.

This was always an eyebrow-raiser for me. If I had to hazard a guess, it's because higher-level CC players actually know how to pay attention to enemy status bars and their LB levels and are actually aware of what's going on at a given time. Taking those aspects into consideration, DRG's LB is almost as predictable and obvious as SAM's LB and its "overpowered-ness" falls off at higher play (in CC, which is the only PvP the PvP intern person team cares about). They said about as much in their buff to DRG in 6.38:

Counterplay to the limit break Sky Shatter has become more widespread, making it difficult to capitalize on the damage potential of this ability. To ensure it has the effectiveness one would expect of a limit break, the barrier effect granted after executing Sky Shatter has been improved significantly. Furthermore, the additional damage dealt to targets within 5 yalms has also been increased, while the damage dealt to targets further away has been slightly decreased, rewarding dragoons for more precise strikes in the thick of battle.

Otherwise, yeah, I agree. DRG's LB on average everywhere else is low risk; high reward while DNC's is high risk; situationally low to middling reward (only 'high' if used synced with another job's LB- where, surprise, DRG is the most impactful- ever coordinate a DRG+DNC LB combo in CC? *chef's kiss*). A DNC is unlikely to even get the full effect of their LB on every target they manage to nail with it. Additionally, a DNC's seduced effect takes an eternity to activate thanks to it's ungodly long start-up telegraph, which often can result in people putting significant distance away from outside it's initial area of effect before seduced even shows up.

It's arguably the jankiest LB outside of niche teamwork. Even DRK premades in FL tend to gravitate to RPR's for LB due to its speedy charge.

...I'm reminded of AST's Gravity used to be able to put debuffs on all affected targets, but they nerfed it to only be your targeted enemy... Clearly they are capable of distinctions for things.

[IDontPetLalas]

"Clearly they are capable of distinctions for things." Yes, skill changes that make sense for CC- for FL? not so much.

[Valence]

Hadn't thought about that, but it's likely a major factor. DR is a preset constant, thus simple. Capping targets to 5 would likely need to snapshot, calculate the distance of all enemies, then select the nearest 5, then mark all others immune. In principle that's trivial, of course, but in the context of everything else that is going on it might be too much.

AoE falloff already exists and has for ages since ARR when AoE went out of hand in dungeons.

If a falloff past X targets can be calculated, then a falloff of 100% past 5 targets can be added easily without any problem that I can see.

[Jettinson]

CC was always the serious game mode, that will always take balance priority

Yeah, honestly after playing so much FL, going back to CC ruined my perception with the wacky and awful stat changes... especially melee

(Too bad I am not fan of the mode itself because otherwise I would have kept playing there)