Do you know why the average pf player is so bad?

[Erzaa]

There's alot here to reply to, I hope I clarified at least most of it.

Dungeons and normal trials factor into the discussion but only to the extent that they aren't challenging enough in regards to acclimating player competency to enter other content. So it is and isn't about dungeons.

Dungeons and normal trials are always challenging the first time. New mechanics are introduced, between HW and SB and then SB and ShB there's a large leap in difficulty in mechanics. New icons are introduced, new patterns, less telegraphs, more requirement to watch your surroundings or the boss, or know in advance what the ability in the cast bar does.

And alot of these mechanics can feel cheap to new players, because they outright die on their first or second attempt, because it's as if the game expects them to peer into the future.

The challenge is lost on repeated attempts, once a player knows the fight and exactly what they need to do.

I think you are misunderstanding something which is saying I'm demanding a particular skill level.
Again. I was addressing the hypothetical player that was proposed. One that could honestly be created within the current content pipeline.
The idea it doesn't matter how competent they are based on their level as long as they are personally having fun, is self-indulgent. To be accepting of that behavior is coddling and atrophies player growth.

Now I'll say this for a third time. I am tolerant of your run of the mill random goof you'll find in a duty roulette.
Being tolerant doesn't make it okay. Especially at the expense of others because one person's fun shouldn't infringe on everybody else's fun.
Yes, you do agree to be randomly paired with people in a duty roulette (I'll be moving the conversation towards PF in a bit) but you know part of that social contract is also having the competency to play your role. Otherwise, you're most certainly griefing a group. Especially when you're talking about higher levels (as in actual levels in this case) of content.

You explain it as some personal affront to you and other players who like high-end content. It's not. It's a video game. It's meant to be fun entertainment. Treat it as such. And yes, if you don't like the average PF player and don't want to play with them, then don't. As I said, you have the tools necessary to associate with the types of players you want to play with.

To add an additional thought experiment to the mix; it's like for example an individual who doesn't know how to heal, queueing up as a healer

Interesting you should mention this. Because I've seen this with a friend, during my early sprout days. Except, this person wasn't interested in quick queues or rewards, they just wanted to try a healer role. A friend who enjoys games casually, only for fun. Having a tank sit at the entrance of the dungeon and not move on the first wipe, then cast a vote kick, in a level 30 dungeon no less. Without going into details, this is a person who's done far more with their life than most, experienced more, and who outright quit the game, because some veteran player just couldn't be patient, not out of anger, or spite, but because it was just so silly. A veteran player drove away a sprout player who tried to heal their first dungeon. Tell me who the real dead weight was? Tell me again how this is SE's fault? Tell me again how gatekeeping is an invalid argument?

This is a random example but my point about that type of player is that according to you that becomes a "You" problem for me. I didn't choose this person. Sure I randomly got stuck with the person but wouldn't you agree then at least within the confines of this hypothetical at least that the person who queued up as a healer main has some form of responsibility in doing that job competently?

You chose to join this person's PF or join the Duty Finder, whichever case it may be. As such, you chose to play with what you were given. This person does have an obligation to do the best they can to clear, as do you. If said player is standing around doing nothing, you've every right to complain, as I stated before. But their skill level versus yours doesn't matter, worry about your own performance and not about what the other person is doing. At most, you'll lose a few minutes of your day, or, you can exit gracefully.

I don't believe there would be such a gap if we just cranked the heat up on normal content progressively through out your leveling process so by max level in the job you are playing EX/Unreal will still be a hurdle (so it will be difficult) but you won't have this result where the skill gap is so large because the base game asks so much of you that you quit.

You may very well be right the a slight increase in difficulty might help players become more accustomed to it. It may force players to improve, it may drive them away.

But, what about the third possibility? The risk in the increase in resentment between good players and casual players, as now the casual players will feel more pressure to perform or be called out, and the good players who will have even more time out of their day wasted, because they'll feel like they need to put in additional effort to carry the bad players?

I care about the players we lose for higher levels (talking about difficulty this time) of content because the base game never asked anything of them and they are faced with this massive skill wall and quit before they even try to learn.
We should be doing a better job to make that transition easier for people who do care.

I'd like to address this point, because on this, it particularly applies to me too. While I've no interest in Savages or Ultimates at all, I've neither the time nor energy to put so much effort into doing those, when it comes to Extremes, I've done the ARR and HW ones sync'ed, while I was still a sprout, and stopped doing them after HW expansion. The reason wasn't the difficulty spikes, or the fear of new mechanics; it was other players. I've completed plenty of single player games on their hardest difficulties. It might take me a bit longer than other players, but I already know I can do it. It's not a fear of difficulty.

It's the types of players who frequent these forums complaining about other players' skill (and I don't mean you or anyone else specifically, just in general). Because, to players who've already completed these many times, such that they became easy, they don't have the patience to work with new players still learning the ropes. No, you're not expected to go in blind, you must lookup the guide. No, you're not allowed to read the tooltips and learn a "good enough" rotation that works for you, you must join The Balance and learn your optimal rotation. No, you can't fail the mechanic more than a few times, you must learn the mechanics and understand them on their timeframe.

There's plenty the game doesn't teach you properly, I've no argument with that. And I'm definitely not against more resources in the game to teach more. But, if it's not in the game, then the game isn't demanding it. If the game isn't demanding it, then I'll not be held hostage to the demands of other players who feel like I should play the game their way. That's why the arguments for gatekeeping come up so much.

The veteran playerbase has a my way or the highway attitude to the harder content, which, I've no issue with in theory, but I'm going to choose the highway. I'll wait for that content to be easy enough for myself and a couple of friends to do it unsync'ed. Because, at the end of the day, that's all it is, just a game. Entertainment. Being good or bad at a video game means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

Many players stay away from harder content because of the attitude other players display, and that's not the game's fault or SE's fault.

Based on the second statement underneath I'm assuming you're a former WoW player?

I'm not. I came from SWTOR.

To your last point. Yes, they are dead weight. I'm not going to pretend they aren't dead weight. I'm not soft or sentimental when it comes to reasonable expectations. Now I'll still carry dead weight to the finish line to the bitter end but that's because I like the exercise. Especially as a healer. Makes my job more interesting but they are a burden they need to try harder. Everyone makes mistakes but mistakes aren't routine.

This is a bold statement. It assumes your expectations are reasonable to begin with. In my personal opinion, as long as the player is pressing their buttons, trying to be active within the fight, and don't try and intrude on a PF clearly marked for good players, clear parties, farm parties etc., that's reasonable and they're not dead weight and can enjoy the game any way they like.

In many ways, I'm glad at many of SE's measures to avoid toxicity in this game. If the stories I've heard about WoW are true, if FF was anything like it, I would've left the game within a few months. So, whatever SE is doing, seems to working, because I'm still here, 4,5 years later.