Do you know why the average pf player is so bad?

[Eastwall]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...t=share_button

I found this interesting post. This is probably why Se does not incentive people to get better. Because instead of getting better, more people would quit And that hurts profit

[strawberrycake]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...t=share_button

I found this interesting post. This is probably why Se does not incentive people to get better. Because instead of getting better, more people would quit And that hurts profit

I mean it's true we don't teach players to be better and nothing in this game is aspirational. Players don't wanna get better to earn the cool stuff, with so much of it handed to them, I remember, wanting, to do more dps, I remember, wanting, to be a better player, I remember, wanting, to get the gear set for my class. The problem with XIV is that we have removed things like there being a difference in gear you get from normal and savage. Originally from Alexander to Omega tier 2, you had to clear savage to get the full armor which was also dyeable, thats gone now. They also don't give Titles to anyone who Clears savage, we only get a mount and our weapon now. Raiding as it stands is not something to aspire to and lacks prestige. Prestige in gaming is healthy, giving players a goal is healthy, yet we've ran far from that in most cases.

We then run into another issue, the feed back loop for doing content, nothing we do within out kits feels weighty, it doesn't feel good to, hit, a boss, and that self same lack of weight also affects our bosses, none of the mechanics feel dangerous, given it's a static dance we're doing over and over again, we know whats coming when and we have the mit for it. We've removed enmity, we've removed bosses being able to one hit anyone thats not the tank, we've removed, the stress, from dungeons.

So here we are now, a lot of players already skip the dated Guildhests and Hall of Novice, but none of our content teaches a single bit of knowledge bar stacks and spreads, we've given them nothing to work towards and they're just flailing in the dark trying to find meaning in their sub and reasons to play.

We have Taken the MMO OUT of the MMO.

[Jojoya]

Prestige in gaming is healthy, giving players a goal is healthy, yet we've ran far from that in most cases.

I would edit that to read:

Prestige in competitive gaming is healthy, giving players a goal is healthy, yet we've ran far from that in most cases.

The majority of games that people play have nothing to do with prestige. They aren't even thinking about prestige when they're playing. They're thinking about relaxation and fun. Perhaps they'll challenge themselves to a personal best but they're not interested in competing against others.

It is the competitive games where prestige becomes important.

FFXIV may have some competitive content but it is not intended to be a competitive game in general. If it was, SE would either create a better defined third party tool policy or do a better job of integrating the popular tools into the game. They would create an official world first race instead of keeping their distance from the unofficial race that players have organized.

Prestige in games is what leads to most toxicity. Some players start acting like they're superior to others when we're all just people at the end of the day.

Whether someone wants a goal in the games they play is their personal business. Most of us already have goals to meet in our personal and work lives. We aren't necessarily looking for more from a game.

Well said.

However, I believe teaching tools and experience can be one and the same.
(snip the rest)

You can try to teach someone. They will not learn anything if they're not interested in the lesson.

You may think people should aspire to a certain level. That does not mean that they agree or will do it.

Not everyone is interested in a taste of higher difficuty. Many are very happy exactly right where they are. Try to force them into that higher difficulty and you're far more likely to end up losing a customer than creating a better player.

That is human nature. Those with interest in rising to a challenge will do it. Those without interest in rising to a challenge won't. They'll just walk away if you try to force it on them.

[strawberrycake]

I would edit that to read:

The majority of games that people play have nothing to do with prestige. They aren't even thinking about prestige when they're playing. They're thinking about relaxation and fun. Perhaps they'll challenge themselves to a personal best but they're not interested in competing against others.It is the competitive games where prestige becomes important. FFXIV may have some competitive content but it is not intended to be a competitive game in general. If it was, SE would either create a better defined third party tool policy or do a better job of integrating the popular tools into the game. They would create an official world first race instead of keeping their distance from the unofficial race that players have organized.Prestige in games is what leads to most toxicity. Some players start acting like they're superior to others when we're all just people at the end of the day.Whether someone wants a goal in the games they play is their personal business. Most of us already have goals to meet in our personal and work lives. We aren't necessarily looking for more from a game.

You're missing the point of how this is playing out, players have nothing to aspire to and adding in Prestige helps with that. It's not about being competitive, nothing about raiding outside the world race, is competitive, It's about players having obtainable reasons to step out of their comfort zones. Beating a raid and earning a title, a mount and a weapon, as well as returning to when we had a difference between normal and savage armor, that, just like it did before, when XIV was way smaller, would encourage people to give savage a try. And people already act like they're better then others in XIV for social reasons, hiding behind the idea that things make people toxic is a dated way of viewing things.

People are toxic in the Venue scene based on how well their venues are doing, people are toxic based on how well their screen shots are doing, people are toxic based on how well their fan fics are doing, people are toxic based on how many people visit their house and compliment the decorations. I see nothing being said and done about that. So I DO NOT agree with that as we ignore how socially toxic XIV can be based in those things.

Also just because You are fufilled in Your life, doesn't mean Othersdon't wanna achieve more in their hobby. And if any of this is added you won't be affected. I'm a full time nurse, I've saved peoples lives before, and that is to say, I'm extrememly fufilled by my work, but achieveing things in my hobby is nice and fun. And By no means does the existence of what I'm talking about take away from how you play, or even affects it. And to top it off we have Prestige in Ultimates and whats are all of them doing, helping more people clear, helping in Eureka, helping in Bozja, because they like helping people.

And just like I mentioned people being toxic in housing, screens, venues, and the fic community. They are the minority, just like toxic people aren;t the majority in raiding. And I get it, you don't like the idea of change that can open the door to toxicity, but it already happens in so many ways as is.

Also have you interacted with XIV's raiding scene in any compacity? Most of us are p chill and just want what savage was before back. It's that simple.

[Jojoya]

players have nothing to aspire to

The achievement lists has tons of things to aspire to. The rewards in the game are things to aspire to if they interest you.

If someone needs prestige, there's PvP. There's getting an Ultimate weapon and title.

No one is going to get prestige from MSQ difficulty being increased.

[Darnath]

You can try to teach someone. They will not learn anything if they're not interested in the lesson.

You may think people should aspire to a certain level. That does not mean that they agree or will do it.

Not everyone is interested in a taste of higher difficuty. Many are very happy exactly right where they are. Try to force them into that higher difficulty and you're far more likely to end up losing a customer than creating a better player.

That is human nature. Those with interest in rising to a challenge will do it. Those without interest in rising to a challenge won't. They'll just walk away if you try to force it on them.

One of those players here.

I'm quite content to be an Duty Finder dweller.
I have ZERO interest in Extreme, Savage, or Ultimate. I've got enough stress IRL that when I come home and tend to home affairs the last thing I want is a stressed environment. Especially in a gaming environment I'm paying every month for. Single player 1 shot pay, I'll tolerate. Multiplayer where I'm paying money and my mistakes (which I'm prone to do) affect the fun of 7-23 other players, no thanks. "But they're just other people on the internet, why care about strangers?" Sorry. I just do care about how my actions directly affect other humans.

It's the reason I left WoW. Not the harassment and other internal issues. Battle for Azeroth pushed the game into a harder mode that basically pushed the equivalent of "DF Players" (aka LFR heroes) into basically either log in just to do 4 daily quests then log off or not even play at all. If the game were to go into the direction the vast majority of this forum wants it to go to, I'd probably take my years here and walk as well. I was relieved when reddit and a few other places confirmed IGN was just clickbaiting when YoshiP confirmed there will be no difficulty spikes, just "more stress" which still has me wary.

So yes, some players may rise up to the increased challenge as some post here. Others will walk. The question is : Will the walkers outnumber the players who left because the game is "too easy"?

[Nadda]

You can try to teach someone. They will not learn anything if they're not interested in the lesson.

You may think people should aspire to a certain level. That does not mean that they agree or will do it.

Not everyone is interested in a taste of higher difficuty. Many are very happy exactly right where they are. Try to force them into that higher difficulty and you're far more likely to end up losing a customer than creating a better player.

That is human nature. Those with interest in rising to a challenge will do it. Those without interest in rising to a challenge won't. They'll just walk away if you try to force it on them.

Not force.
Not try.

Conditioned.
You trick them into becoming more competent players who *could* try higher-end content quite easily IF they wanted to.
Humans can be conditioned. Humans are very adaptable so you create an environment in which they slowly acclimate.
Not make things difficult for them that they'd even notice. Just enough to change their nature.

Right now the game doesn't do a good job of this so many players who are curious get slapped in the face with a skill wall.
I only want the people who want to try - but fail and quit, to become people who try and won't be daunted, because they won't face a wall but a hurdle.
And it will all be a natural corraling. If you edge the difficulty up in normal content just a smidge progressively the gap of entry becomes shorter in a way where normal content isn't too difficult but EXs/Unreals should they try them isn't too hard for them either.

[Colt47]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...t=share_button

I found this interesting post. This is probably why Se does not incentive people to get better. Because instead of getting better, more people would quit And that hurts profit

The thing is that MMOs have their roots in RPGs where level and gear typically determine strength over someones manual skill. The only point where someone can aspire to anything is when they are max level and have the best gear, and that is assuming the game has live action style mechanics like dodging, jumping, etc, to enable that kind of thing. The difficulty that people often think about with older games like Everquest or FFXI were linked not to mechanical difficulty, but the requirement in time and organization of players to do content. I actually think we lost a lot of what was good about the older RPGs that ran on mainframes and later on went to PC and consoles, like the original Ultima and Wizardry.

[LilimoLimomo]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...t=share_button

I found this interesting post. This is probably why Se does not incentive people to get better. Because instead of getting better, more people would quit And that hurts profit

With respect, I think this misses the mark a bit. Because the game is filled with incentives to improve at the game, such as mounts and gear that are exclusive to higher end content.

As other posts in the thread you linked note, the issue is not one of incentives, but rather the lack of a natural ramp that allows players to smoothly transition from easier activities to more difficult ones. If your average casual player wants to get better at the game, there's very little in the game itself that supports their journey of self-improvement. Nothing to teach rotations, nothing to teach mechanics, nothing to smoothly bridge the gap between MSQ- and Extreme-difficulty content. And that's rough, because the difference between the requirements for the MSQ and an Extreme Trial are a giant jagged leap that functionally acts as a wall to most players.

And beyond difficulty, when your average casual player decides to give an Extreme Trial a try and pokes their head into the Party Finder, they'll see things like "doing double-reverse windmill strategy" and "must have watched video" they're going to be like "Ah, this isn't for me" and never look back. Because they want to play a game, not do research and homework.

If the devs want players to improve, they need to craft the game such that your average casual player can improve within the game itself without external help. Until they do that, no amount of incentives will change things.

[Eastwall]

.

And beyond difficulty, when your average casual player decides to give an Extreme Trial a try and pokes their head into the Party Finder, they'll see things like "doing double-reverse windmill strategy" and "must have watched video" they're going to be like "Ah, this isn't for me" and never look back. Because they want to play a game, not do research and homework.

Actually, that's one of the main reason l don't do anything beyond story mode. But l doubt if l would do or even if there is a smooth curve for other reasons.