Do you know why the average pf player is so bad?

[Thurmnmurmn]

If you're seriously losing fun when the dungeon takes 5 more minutes I'd suggest to seriously review your priorities. Maybe you're not having fun already by doing dungeons, and the problem is probably somewhere else?

Ah yes, the good ol' strawman argument.

[Thurmnmurmn]

The problem is more that I don't comprehend how it even stresses you out. It's a random casual dungeon. I don't comprehend how you care so much.

Wait, we are talking about PF and higher end content now?

It's always been about pf (read the thread title).
The only mention of dungeons is that they're a reason why the player base is bad.

[Nadda]

in addressing Kaynide

I'd argue that grouping up with only "good" players creates bubbles of isolation.
And that is what makes MMOs turn into gatekeeping.

Because if we are to say; group up with only good players. Good players have no problem doing that.
But that is a double-edged sword and we've seen what it does to other games.
The problem would then become if the people who are bad want to join in on this content which right now we're being told they don't want to take part of it... They won't be able to when they do want to.
Good players will start disseminating and differentiating standards whether that be gear or fflogs of what's acceptable and are not going to take in bad players. (We sort of have that already for PF) <- This should be concerning for people who think we shouldn't care.

Bad players will then be told to form FCs, Statics or run PF groups of their own since they will start to complain about not being able to do harder content because of the standards they can't meet.
The tried and true; "I want to raid but they won't let me in because I have no parses, I have no parses because nobody will let me raid"

But you will be able to raid. Just with other people of your skill level. But they don't want to play with people at their own level - they want to be carried - or they want to play where the good players are but they can't because they did not care enough.

They never showed initiative before so now in this cursed timeline where these issues aren't addressed we've created an environment similar to WoW.

All we needed to do was make adjustments which asked just a pinch more of a player according to their level and the role they play.

What's crazy is I want to get these people into our high-end content naturally so this doesn't happen.
It may not seem important but it actually is for the health of the game and the community that matters like this get addressed.
The higher-end content is only going to get harder from here on out and I don't think every expansion is going to have Eureka/Bozja zone to fit the midcore playstyle to address this issue properly. So we'll end up with more EW situations where I'm being told that the difficulty curve is too steep. We have to address this and fix this but it's gonna have to involve asking more from players. Just a little bit, nothing insane, just more than we ask of them now, so by max level they are competent enough to enter into these spaces without fear or being faced with a skill wall.

As I said before we want to change that wall to a hurdle. Still difficult but something where it's because you're inexperienced in the fight - not inexperienced in the skill and know how of how your job functions.
MSQ is several hundred hours long at this point. The game has the length and the time to slowly get people to be competent.

Just saw this - can't fit all you wrote

I'll say this much to you.

You seem like a very kind person but your kindness is being misplaced and you're doing more harm to the players we're talking about.
What my suggestions are and what many people are suggesting is trying to help those people. Maybe in a very abrasive way which isn't good way to communicate either. I'm at fault for this. But Coddling people is not good for them.
Our community is so welcoming and forgiving I like this about FF but at the same time the gameplay has become too accommodating sure that's for a mass audience
And it should remain accommodating. Just crank the heat up a pinch... not even enough to be noticeable. (but in the long run makes a long enough impact on player performance.. MSQ is several hundred hours long at this point, that's plenty enough time to get people prepared so they aren't left behind)
I don't want the game to become super sweaty try hard any of that... or for bad players to be harassed.
I want them to be better because I know they can be. But they can't be better by holding them back and pretending like everything is okay.

[strawberrycake]

All of This.

It's why I dislike how so many in this community act all of the time. As soon as someone who's familiar with the games content and how it all functions steps up and speaks on not only the games issues, but the communities issues, people wanna run away from the very obvious truth and focus on semantics and personal situations over the facts of how MMOs work and then fixing all these problems becomes overly tedious. Too many people feel personally attacked by saying things can be better, and I wish they didn't.

[Themarvin]

Patience is the key with everything, you are a bad player because your patience runs up as someone may need a little bit more to reach the end in PF of whatever duty.

They key is patience with everything and spending the time trying to beat the content, you may even get a little bit better yourself and if you succeed or fail to beat it.. then the ones you where with has gotten a little bit better including yourself, meaning if you end up joining a good group, they would not yell at you, for you doing your job badly and can somewhat keep up with the good players.

Patience and time will solve alot of things, wielding patience is difficult though and a feature you must learn if you want to get along with others more easy, it would also motivate yourself and others around you if you got patience.

[strawberrycake]

This is the type of stuff we need in hall of Novice, and it needs to be mandatory.

[Nadda]

This is the type of stuff we need in hall of Novice, and it needs to be mandatory.

Not a bad solution at all.
A proper training regiment coupled with acclimating difficulty for players at x malmstones of levels to achieve certain competency levels would greatly improve the player experience.

It should also be said and cannot be understated. Nobody should condone the harassment or belittlement of low-skill competent players.
That said I will tolerate low-skill players however I expect them to be prepared not perfect if they choose to play in high-end PF content.

There is a difference.

Let's bridge those gaps so that people can enjoy the full range of content and not be barred from it!