Do you know why the average pf player is so bad?

[Nadda]

I do agree that FF14 has a teaching problem...

I sometimes watch some of my less-skilled friends play, and often when mechanics appear they can either be soaked or the rest of the group is competent enough that the death of one unskilled player doesn't cause a wipe. So the content gets passed, but the mechanic doesn't get learned.

And over time, there's this cumulative effect where more mechanics are added, and the player still doesn't know the old ones, so there are more opportunities to die. And if you die and it doesn't wipe the party, you stay unskilled, and you know you're unskilled, and that's a crappy place to be.

When was the last time you saw a legitimate DPS check in a dungeon?

When was the last time you saw a dungeon boss that could genuinely snowball a fight into a full team wipe if someone was caught napping?

When was the last time a healer (Or even DPS) was genuinely at risk of running out of MP/Resources/Cooldowns in a dungeon which would invariably lead to a wipe?

When was the last time you actually had to watch your positioning for fear of aggroing more trash mobs than the group had any chance of handling?

It's a problem of accommodation. We FF14 players are known for being kind and supportive in the face of failure. The game however in its majority share has been made so that newer players never face failure.
It's all giggling and laughing because tanks are so strong in most content they can solo bosses by themselves but that is just far too accommodating to these people we've atrophied the minds of players, so they go into EXs which aren't that much more difficult than normal content but it asks just a pinch more from you, they fail. Well, these players haven't faced failure before so what happens to the pf group? They get frustrated and they quit. Now the player who was ready to face the challenge is left with a worst experience of not being able to complete that EX without a dedicated friend group. Well really it's Savage which is where you should start having the dedicated groups. EX is the tone setter, Savage is the amplifier ya dig?

Nobody wants the game to be super sweaty and difficult. As Yoshi-P said in a recent interview we need more stress. More pits in the sidescroller to fall into. Our issue is the normal game, has no pits, it shouldn't be difficult, it should prepare you with skills so by max level you are prepared to enter the higher ends of content. EX and Unreals should be the entry level to Savage which should be our median level to Ultimates. Normal then should be tutorial that sets people on the path necessary to tackle end game challenges and not be faced with a massive skill wall. The gap between normal and EX isn't as big as we think. We do not need to construct a bridge between the two with midcore content. Normal at max level should be midcore.

[Eastwall]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...t=share_button

I found this interesting post. This is probably why Se does not incentive people to get better. Because instead of getting better, more people would quit And that hurts profit

[strawberrycake]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...t=share_button

I found this interesting post. This is probably why Se does not incentive people to get better. Because instead of getting better, more people would quit And that hurts profit

I mean it's true we don't teach players to be better and nothing in this game is aspirational. Players don't wanna get better to earn the cool stuff, with so much of it handed to them, I remember, wanting, to do more dps, I remember, wanting, to be a better player, I remember, wanting, to get the gear set for my class. The problem with XIV is that we have removed things like there being a difference in gear you get from normal and savage. Originally from Alexander to Omega tier 2, you had to clear savage to get the full armor which was also dyeable, thats gone now. They also don't give Titles to anyone who Clears savage, we only get a mount and our weapon now. Raiding as it stands is not something to aspire to and lacks prestige. Prestige in gaming is healthy, giving players a goal is healthy, yet we've ran far from that in most cases.

We then run into another issue, the feed back loop for doing content, nothing we do within out kits feels weighty, it doesn't feel good to, hit, a boss, and that self same lack of weight also affects our bosses, none of the mechanics feel dangerous, given it's a static dance we're doing over and over again, we know whats coming when and we have the mit for it. We've removed enmity, we've removed bosses being able to one hit anyone thats not the tank, we've removed, the stress, from dungeons.

So here we are now, a lot of players already skip the dated Guildhests and Hall of Novice, but none of our content teaches a single bit of knowledge bar stacks and spreads, we've given them nothing to work towards and they're just flailing in the dark trying to find meaning in their sub and reasons to play.

We have Taken the MMO OUT of the MMO.

[Colt47]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...t=share_button

I found this interesting post. This is probably why Se does not incentive people to get better. Because instead of getting better, more people would quit And that hurts profit

The thing is that MMOs have their roots in RPGs where level and gear typically determine strength over someones manual skill. The only point where someone can aspire to anything is when they are max level and have the best gear, and that is assuming the game has live action style mechanics like dodging, jumping, etc, to enable that kind of thing. The difficulty that people often think about with older games like Everquest or FFXI were linked not to mechanical difficulty, but the requirement in time and organization of players to do content. I actually think we lost a lot of what was good about the older RPGs that ran on mainframes and later on went to PC and consoles, like the original Ultima and Wizardry.

[AmiableApkallu]

I sometimes watch some of my less-skilled friends play, and often when mechanics appear they can either be soaked or the rest of the group is competent enough that the death of one unskilled player doesn't cause a wipe. So the content gets passed, but the mechanic doesn't get learned.

And over time, there's this cumulative effect where more mechanics are added, and the player still doesn't know the old ones, so there are more opportunities to die. And if you die and it doesn't wipe the party, you stay unskilled, and you know you're unskilled, and that's a crappy place to be.

That's talking about unknowledgeable players. It takes only a little willpower and effort to type in Party chat, "Uh, how'd I die?" Or, "What was I supposed to do there?" Or, in this day and age, to find a YouTube video or wiki-site.

Knowledge can be sought out. No one has to wait for it to be presented to them on a silver platter.

[LilimoLimomo]

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus...t=share_button

I found this interesting post. This is probably why Se does not incentive people to get better. Because instead of getting better, more people would quit And that hurts profit

With respect, I think this misses the mark a bit. Because the game is filled with incentives to improve at the game, such as mounts and gear that are exclusive to higher end content.

As other posts in the thread you linked note, the issue is not one of incentives, but rather the lack of a natural ramp that allows players to smoothly transition from easier activities to more difficult ones. If your average casual player wants to get better at the game, there's very little in the game itself that supports their journey of self-improvement. Nothing to teach rotations, nothing to teach mechanics, nothing to smoothly bridge the gap between MSQ- and Extreme-difficulty content. And that's rough, because the difference between the requirements for the MSQ and an Extreme Trial are a giant jagged leap that functionally acts as a wall to most players.

And beyond difficulty, when your average casual player decides to give an Extreme Trial a try and pokes their head into the Party Finder, they'll see things like "doing double-reverse windmill strategy" and "must have watched video" they're going to be like "Ah, this isn't for me" and never look back. Because they want to play a game, not do research and homework.

If the devs want players to improve, they need to craft the game such that your average casual player can improve within the game itself without external help. Until they do that, no amount of incentives will change things.

[LilimoLimomo]

That's talking about unknowledgeable players. It takes only a little willpower and effort to type in Party chat, "Uh, how'd I die?" Or, "What was I supposed to do there?" Or, in this day and age, to find a YouTube video or wiki-site.

Knowledge can be sought out. No one has to wait for it to be presented to them on a silver platter.

As a game designer, it doesn't really matter what options your casual players have available to them if the statistics show that they won't exercise those options. You can expect your casual players to ask questions or do research until you're blue in the face, but that expectation won't change reality.

Your designs, however, can change things. Game design is all about meeting your players where they're at and strategically designing your game such that it manipulates them into being where you want them to be. If you design your game correctly, you'll statistically turn most of your players from newbies into champions.

For better or worse, CBU3 hasn't invested much into this aspect of design. The results are exactly what you'd expect from a game that does little to teach its players while having an overwhelmingly casual install base.

[AmiableApkallu]

Game design is all about meeting your players where they're at and strategically designing your game such that it manipulates them into being where you want them to be.

It's also about deciding what kinds of players you want engaging with the various parts of your game in the first place.

If you're the sort of gamer who can't help but toss out personal insults left and right because it's a day ending in "y", you're not welcome in any part of FFXIV.

If you're the sort of gamer who's not the least bit curious about anything, can't be bothered to think your way through a problem, and expect to have the game spell everything out to you on a silver platter, maybe you're just not the target for FFXIV's harder content.

For example:

It's wild to me that the game itself doesn't have anything like training facilities where such players can be taught about mechanics: here's what a stack marker means, here's what two stack markers mean, etc.

Experience is a great teacher, if you're open to it.

"I know how one stack marker works. So two stack markers is easy! We stand together! *SPLAT* Well, that didn't work... maybe we should stand in two separate groups? Not sure what else we could do there..." (Conveniently ignore the garbage that is Syrcus Tower, which is a whole 'nother can of worms that needs fixing.)

[LilimoLimomo]

If you're the sort of gamer who's not the least bit curious about anything, can't be bothered to think your way through a problem, and expect to have the game spell everything out to you on a silver platter, maybe you're just not the target for FFXIV's harder content.

It's not outside the realm of possibility that this is true; maybe this is genuinely the aim of CBU3's design. And if so, congrats, it's working! But I also vaguely recall Yoshi-P lamenting about how he'd like players to give harder content a try, and if that's genuinely how he feels, the craft of game design is there with some well-documented tools that his team could use to make that a reality.

Experience is a great teacher, if you're open to it.

"I know how one stack marker works. So two stack markers is easy! We stand together! *SPLAT* Well, that didn't work... maybe we should stand in two separate groups? Not sure what else we could do there..."

Oh I 100% agree. But this goes back to the point I brought up in my original post: these mechanics are often not introduced or repeated in ways that truly test whether every member of a group understands a mechanic. As a designer, you can develop scenarios where it's nearly impossible for players to progress until they have demonstrated that they've learned a concept. But in FF14, if enough of your group has grokked it or gets lucky, then those who didn't figure it out can frequently progress past that content without that moment of learning.

If CBU3 wants to gate off harder content from certain kinds of players, then that's not an issue. But if they want to foster growth in such players, it's a missed opportunity.

[Nadda]

Experience is a great teacher, if you're open to it.

Well said.

However, I believe teaching tools and experience can be one and the same.
The learning curve in normal content needs to be raised if but a fraction this is just a small tweak in number values and we will see very significant results that won't make the game impossible or unapproachable but instill a natural acclimation of difficulty in what the game asks from its players to make the gap between EXs/Unreals less of a wall and more of a hurdle.

I don't believe people need to aspire higher than that.

Though it's important to not only make the highest form of content like Savage and Ultimates the most dynamic but there should be more prestige rewards for clearing the most difficult content.
Those who get a taste of what difficult content can be like to be tempted to make the leap into what should become an almost separate progression system above what you can achieve normally. I believe this incentive is tried and true.
I know for a fact at this moment I'm not up to snuff to be an ultimate raider yet. Its a bit embarrassing that an Ultimate Legend is using essentially the same weapon and gear I have.

It's like that saying "I did x and all I got was a crumby t-shirt" - We all know that the Legend Title hold weight but it's kinda lame when you got to glam over the Relic weapon with your Ultimate weapon because it's not Bis. (it should be though)