Do you know why the average pf player is so bad?

[Vandso]

You know, I like watching new players trying FFXIV for the first time on youtube, I like to see their reactions and stuff. But one think I also notice is that a lot of them complain about how easy the earlier fights are, and they are indeed braindead easy. The orange juices take too long and are not punishing enough, you can literally stand inside them and nothing will happen. The bosses die too quickly and are not interesting at all, there are no mechanics and you don't learn nothing with them. There are no non-optional challening dungeons in ARR (yes, all the somewhat challenging ones are optional, which explains why new players struggle a lot in them). You know where the first stack mechanic happens? In fucking Praetorium. The first proximity? Titan (it doesn't even kill you). The first spread? Ultima. Wtf? These are mechanics trash mobs should use imo (but that's a discussion for another thread), you should definitelly see them way earlier and way more frequent.

How would be my approach to solve this issue: you know that slime that is a midboss in Copperbell Mines? You know the tiny slimes that it shoots that explodes? Yeah, make the telegraphs be a second long. And make them take half of your life and give you vul stacks. Yeah, you will be hit in the first time but you won't want to be hit in the second time. Make the players see what's going on in the screen and solve their own problems. The fire boss in Halatali? Make that be an actual dps check. You just have two or three dps buttons at that level! Press the buttons! The divebombs of the last boss of Stone Vigil, make them way quicker! I always fall asleep in that boss! And please add more of the fundamental mechanics such as stacks, spreads and proximities throughout the earlier dungeons, you should not have to wait 50 levels to start to learn about them.

[Souljacker]

The early dungeons used to have some interesting mechanics, they were removed and replaced.

I think it was a mistake.

[Burmecia]

The early dungeons used to have some interesting mechanics, they were removed and replaced.

I think it was a mistake.

Wasn't that done for Trusts?

[Saraide]

Wasn't that done for Trusts?

Doubtful. There's no way trusts couldnt have handled something like the elemental tower mechanic in castrum abania. There is no functional difference between that mechanic and any other donut shaped attack.

[Jeeqbit]

PF players are the way they are because they are casual players that didn't gear up yet (they are either in crafted gear or lower, often lower), they don't use food and pots, they don't understand snapshotting properly so they think the game has lag issues, they don't use legacy movement so they find the game infinitely harder, their HUD Layout probably isn't optimized so their concentration is divided all over the screen.

You know, I like watching new players trying FFXIV for the first time on youtube, I like to see their reactions and stuff. But one think I also notice is that a lot of them complain about how easy the earlier fights are

The ones I've seen on YouTube are the opposite. They find pressing their 2-button rotation whilst running out of a red circle difficult and end up breaking their combo and stuff like that. So not everyone finds that easy and obviously SE is thinking of the players who find it hard.

there are no mechanics and you don't learn nothing with them

Not really true. This is teaching them that in-out patterns are common, that red circles are common, that stack markers and tank busters are a standard part of the game. By repeating this concept throughout the ARR MSQ dungeons, it teaches them the norms of the game so that when they build upon it in the expansions, it makes more sense to them.

The first spread? Ultima.

There are definitely multiple spreads in Praetorium.

[Jojoya]

You know, I like watching new players trying FFXIV for the first time on youtube, I like to see their reactions and stuff. But one think I also notice is that a lot of them complain about how easy the earlier fights are, and they are indeed braindead easy.

They may be players new to FFXIV but they are rarely new to MMORPGs or at least some video game with combat systems.

SE needs to think about the new players that are also new to video game combat in general, and MMORPG systems specifically.

What's missing isn't a more difficult starting experience. What's missing is a skip for the "MMORPG basics tutorial" that those with previous MMORPG experience may not need.

[Sebazy]

IMHO it's because there's absolutely no incentive to care or do anything more than the bare minimum (Which is usually just being alert enough to accept a duty pop).

The game does nothing whatsoever to promote actively trying to improve your own personal standard of play, but at a casual standard of play is more than happy to give you the full rewards even if the bulk of your contribution is just putting some one on auto follow.

Meanwhile trying to help others even with genuinely good intentions is arguably one of the riskiest things you can do in this game, not far behind hurling profanity in towns.

It's just insanity to me. Especially coming off the back of games like Everquest and FFXI.

[Sylvain]

For two reasons

First would be the basic game has become too easy.

It simply starts with dungeons.

Dungeons overall are not punishing enough. If you make a mistake, the healer can fix it because nothing hurts remotely enough. If you're self aware of your own mistakes, that's fine, but if you aren't, you may (as way too many) fall into the trap of "healer didn't heal me". It's easier to understand that you massively failed when something litterally OS you, or if you get a un dispellable doom. Currently, you can finish most dungeon by standing in about half the ground marker.

The lack of healing, dps and tanking check during dungeon bosses is also a problem. You could do a boss with tank and dps only doing their basic 123 and you'd still be fine. The issue is that, without a dps check, you do not teach tank, dps and healer that they must do enough damage or else. I'm not talking about tough dps check here. You take the minimum ilv, you assume basic rotation, no 2min burst or anything, just "basic" rotation. and reduce that amount by 10-15%. Any group, even with 1 death, having 4 players doing a normal rotation would NEVER see an enrage. However, a very bad player (like a very bad dps), especially if they're playing with the AI, would notice because they'd keep seeing the boss enrage. At least when playing with the AI, the boss resets if you die, that's good.

Regarding healing, it is kind of the same. A dungeon boss should require more than 1 ogcd a min to be healed. The last dungeon does not require a healer, and if you are, assise is enough, the fairy can soloheal any boss, like... the healing required is SO low (assuming people dodge) that healer are unnecessary. How do you expect a healer doing that, feeling "this is normal" to handle an EX trial? You go from "maybe think of doing one AoE heal once a min" to "Okay here, it's gonna hurt real bad because 3 aoe will hit bakc to back, be sure to have 1 mitigue and some CDs"

A tank are thought to use their CD on the trash (rightfully so) but then can face tank anything the boss throws at them without breaking a sweat... Guess what happens when they encounter a boss that has 2 TB close together... they die on the second.


So dungeons, and normal raid and 24man being too easy are a first. But it all starts with the dungeons as this is where most casual stays if they don't feel they can tackle harder stuff.

And then there's the new trend of "entitlement".
Basically, people do not take advice, they do not want advice, they want to play the way they want. Fine, but not really...
This leads to entitled bad players falling into desillusion believing they're doing fine when they're really just extremely bad.
I've met a RDM in dungeon who spam verthunder/aero "because it has higher potency" (but like, the long cast) and he wouldn't budge from it.

If the game itself show entitled people that they're bad, they might get better (or stop playing).
But if the game tells them "you're doing just fine", well obviously, if we're wiping, it's everyone else's fault.

Like, when farming EX, I've seen a few dps, sometime lower than healers, comment on the dps being too low. You obviously can't tell them because it's against the TOS, but god. (altough simply looking at the aggro list is often enough)

[Jeeqbit]

First would be the basic game has become too easy.

No, people were always as they are now. Even when the game was "harder". I mean, dungeons were never hard in the first place, even in Heavensward. The worst was like... The Vault? But once you got used to it and synced down, it was trivial.

People didn't become better at the game "because there were tank stances", for example. They just simply did stuff like staying in tank stance always, or spamming an enmity combo instead of other combos such as DoTs. I remember we had some SMN join Heavensward savage parties who like didn't... summon anything.

If you're self aware of your own mistakes, that's fine, but if you aren't, you may (as way too many) fall into the trap of "healer didn't heal me".

It's really always felt that way though. Healers exist to heal the mistakes of people who can't do mechanics... and occasionally raid-wides. So if everyone can do mechanics they are mostly just spamming broil and supporting the tank with big pulls. It wasn't really that different in the past.

The difference now is that mechanics are better telegraphed, so people are less likely to be unaware of mechanics such as in Lost City of Amdapor HM, where nobody knows the clone mechanic anymore, and therefore the healer isn't going to need to heal the results of that. The other difference is tanks can handle healing up or shielding mistakes a lot of the time. But the dungeons themselves weren't really massively more difficult, and felt like they killed you in 1 hit about as often as they do now.

The lack of healing, dps and tanking check during dungeon bosses is also a problem.

Two things that have changed, for sure, are tanking (because in ARR you just had to mitigate autos constantly and tank busters weren't necessarily these telegraphed casts), and the removal of DPS checks (but for context, the enrage on O1 normal is like 14 minutes so it's not a serious DPS check and may as well not exist).

Now, although I'm arguing these things were never that much different in the past, that doesn't mean I wouldn't be happy with things being tougher. I personally would see EX1 difficulty as a fulfilling normal difficulty. When it was current, if 1 person was missing from the Ahk Morn, you had to mit really hard or it was over, and that sort of consequence with the ability to try hard and overcome the consequence is what I like.

24man being too easy are a first.

I think they just shouldn't care too much about making alliance raids hard. There are 6 healers and most of the alliance is a SMN or RDM anyway. They will rez through any amount of difficulty. So what's the point in making them easy when resurrection already has that covered?

I like the CLL and Dalriada concept of 8 people doing a separate battle that is harder, so the less confident players can do the easier fight and then it's both a choice and teamwork.

And then there's the new trend of "entitlement".
Basically, people do not take advice, they do not want advice, they want to play the way they want. Fine, but not really...

Can't agree with that though. People play for many different reasons: story, roleplaying, raiding, social interaction. They may also be fine with advice, just not from a stranger who they don't know/trust.

I've met a RDM in dungeon who spam verthunder/aero "because it has higher potency" (but like, the long cast) and he wouldn't budge from it.

If the game itself show entitled people that they're bad, they might get better (or stop playing).

It would be good if the game could at least prove to them that this part is wrong by having some sort of check in the MSQ, item level synced, that is a different check depending on your role, that way the DPS check doesn't have to account for tanks/healers. Or do it in a role quest and require the role quest.

[Valence]

People pay way too much attention to what other players do in dungeon runs instead of focusing on their own performance tbh.