We need more HARROWING HELL

[Supersnow845]

I’m happy to leave HOL/DM as magic only but in exchange they need to remove the regen and the heal from DV/SIO, the advantage of the shields used to be Omni mitigation at the expense of them being useless once the shield expired but the regen and the heal are now so strong on those two they free up so many healer resources that the advantage of the two true mitigations not dropping off if another raidwide happens in their duration barely matters

There should be reasons for either one to be preferred

[sindriiisgaming]

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

IMHO at the very least if they want to have today’s SIO, they should’ve tied that to the action’s mechanic itself.

You want to have a partywide shield of 21% of WAR’s max HP? You have to consume Vengeance.
You want to have the 300p upfront heal? You have to consume Bloodwhetting.
You want to have the 500p HoT? You have to consume ToB.
Just SIO? Partywide 300p shield. Nothing else.

[Valence]

I think it's a tactical skill check. I do think it makes you identify different damage types and apply the proper counters to it. I like applying counters to things. Maybe you don't care because you're not a rphys main, and that's alright. I don't like positionals either but I'm not going all my way into telling melee positionals SHOULD be deleted. But then again maybe tanks don't find it interesting to adjust their defensives to whatever attack they're deflecting, but then what do they care about then? How would you make DM and HoL unique? Or do you just not care and want them to do exactly the same thing than SIO?

I don't care how SIO and DV have been historically better or whatever. The post above yours already explains perfectly well how it's not the point, and I also did already. Balance the tanks, don't destroy the battle system further. I don't know how more clear I can make it.

On rphys equivalents, and maybe people have a short memory or are new, but rphys actually used to be the king role of party mitigation. Now everybody and their mothers have a crapload of mitigation tools in the support department. Even RDM got some those days. The only tank that had something was PLD in HW, and DV was really... something else than what it is today. SB introduced a lot more on the tank department, like SIO, Dark Missionary, etc. I was fine with it. But now even healers got a crapload of that, so you'll excuse me if as a rphys I feel a little obsolete in what I used to be good at. Now I'm just one among many.

This is also why I'd like them to reintroduce good gameplay facets into specifically debuffing enemies for rphys.

[Lyth]

No, I don't think that it's a tactical skill check either. If this game wasn't scripted and forced you to identify the next attack by animation tells alone, then you could make a case for it. You're just using up an extra hotbar space just to resolve a relatively simple memorization check. There are better ways to get value than that.

You know what is a much more interesting concept? Actual, timed counterattacks, where mitigating a specific boss attack procs either a counterattack or miniature burst window. If you are interested in looking at that angle that's fine, but I think a lot of people have been frustrated with the balance disrepencies created by damage type specific mitigation for years now.

As an aside, if you're looking back historically, all three tanks in HW had raidwide mitigation tools. WAR had Storm's Path, which was 100% uptime damage mitigation. DRK had Reprisal and INT down from Delirium. Paladin had Divine Veil and STR down from Rage of Halone. Many of Divine Veil's changes are relatively recent. It's always been a 10% shield, but one that required a self-heal to proc. In 3.2 it was reduced from a 150s recast to a 120s recast and allowed PLD to proc it with a self Clemency, and the recast was reduced further to 90s in 5.0. 6.x was when the healing buffs were added and the heal proc requirement was removed.

[Saraide]

Yea why did they buff the shield party mits? Werent they already more valuable thanks to working on physical raid wides?

[Jeeqbit]

Yea why did they buff the shield party mits? Werent they already more valuable thanks to working on physical raid wides?

They buffed Shake It Off due to the increased incoming damage in Endwalker, such as DoTs on raid-wides in Abyssos. But it was also to make it as good as Paladin's Divine Veil, which had a raid-wide heal added at level 88.

In reality, it just solidifies Warrior and Paladin's status as a good substitute for a healer, because now it's not just single target heals.

[Saraide]

They buffed Shake It Off due to the increased incoming damage in Endwalker, such as DoTs on raid-wides in Abyssos. But it was also to make it as good as Paladin's Divine Veil, which had a raid-wide heal added at level 88.

In reality, it just solidifies Warrior and Paladin's status as a good substitute for a healer, because now it's not just single target heals.

Ah yea there is logic in that. DM/HoL affect the entire bleed but just the shields didnt.

[Valence]

Then what's a skill check? Pressing a button for troubadour/SIO/whatever before a party wide? Because you don't find it interesting doesn't mean it isn't, or that other people don't either. Identifying the proper tools to react to something specific is a skill in my opinion. Feel free to disagree on it. I'm totally open to make it more interesting for tanks with your idea of counterattacks, but what matters to me is the concept of damage types and appropriate reactions. If they proc a counter, then sure, even better, more rewarding, you get an additional treat for doing it properly beyond just self satisfaction. I'm all for it.

Like, if you want to talk about tank balance sure, feel free to do it, but don't start using it as an excuse to dumb down the game furthermore, that's all I'm asking.

And the historical facts you brought up about HW is exactly why I like the HW debuffing model. Everyone had a different type of role and debuff they could bring, and it was not always a universal encompassing tool. Obviously there is a middleground to be found, for the simple reason that we don't necessarily want to go back into the old infamous job synergies.

[Supersnow845]

Is there really logic in it though, the advantage of the shields was that they are Omni mitigation, the advantage of the pure mitigations is that they affect bleeds and multiple hits

Why arent the shields allowed to simply be weaker at this particular task